Screening for appropriate parents... And sterilization.

Many of you know I work at a daycare, I'm with kids all the time. I love em to be honest; I'm a kid at heart and love having a job where you get to go in and play with kids, get fed 2 meals, have a 3 hour paid break, and meet some hot moms (hah, ya right). But there are things that really get to me. Kids are great, they are like a blank canvas. They can do anything, and should be encouraged to do as much as possible. But nowadays kids are just floating through their childhoods. They wake up, get dropped off at daycare, are picked up and go home to microwave dinners and TV until bedtime, then up again for the next day. I just cant stand all of the structure nowadays with parenting, nobody wants to let their kid be a kid anymore. At the daycare we have tons of rules to protect the kids, but more than anything else protect the daycare. I remember walking to school at least a mile and a half every day up until fifth grade. Every day. By myself (or with my cousins or sisters) walking down a somewhat busy street in the middle of the city. I had to find out on my own that if you throw snowballs at cars they WILL stop every now and again, and if you fall down in the snow without gloves on in -3 degree weather you need to do something with your hands other than cry and stick them out in the wind. This is turning into a rant, so prepare yourselves. One of the hardest things for me is looking at kids and being able to peg them. There are the kids you know are going to be popular, pretty, a good athlete, pregnant at 16, confidant, self conscious, shy, in jail, whatever. And the thing about it is, like I said, These kids have every means available to them to prevent or ensure their happiness. Its the parents you look at. Some parents let their kids control them, some parents treat their kids like a burden, some parents treat their kids like an accessory, some parents treat their kids like there is something wrong with them they cannot fix, some parents treat their kids like a stranger. Its horrible. I know I'm not getting a large enough sample ( or diverse enough) to judge the current generations parenting skills, but from what I am used to I just think that people really need to stop procreating for a while. As i write this though I find myself asking what would be the end all cure to the problems i have proposed, and it comes to me. Education. Yet Education is one of the things that is the problem at the same time. Todays education systems are more concerned with babying kids and teaching them to be automatons than they are about actually evoking curiosity or self worth in a child. Some teachers are more worried about following the rules and getting through the workday than they are about the future of these children. Children are told what to do and how to do it more and more. Funny thing is it usually works, kids get smarter, they get good grades, they have the ability to see what is wrong and right, but they lack one virtue that turns a smart person into a wise or intelligent person; inventiveness. Creativity. That little spark that separates them from everybody else. Then theres the other half of kids in school now a days, the kids that are told what to do at school, but what they are told is not reinforced at home. They Develop a lot of creativity but almost always end up using it for their own personal gain, and are so concerned with the here and now. They develop apathy. I see this every day, argue what you will. I know What i said doesn't pertain to everybody, and i know there are a lot of good parents out there. But in my opinion there shouldn't be bad parents. If people aren't suitable parents it can be figured out long before they procreate by their own actions and habits. Which is where my thread title comes from. Our planets population is growing exponentially, soon we wont have enough resources to support our population. Eventually registering for procreation will become a topic. Or we go to war over it and end up killing enough people to free up some of the green space thats left. Everybody needs to let a rant out now and then

Long read...but good post. Parents today are leaning towards whacko.

I have to go through background checks fingerprinting training classes and register for a firearm.... to have a kid all one needs to do is take tab a and insert into slot b and wait 9 months.... not permit needed no official training needed... some parents need to be smacked.....

cliff notes? :lol:

cliff notes? :lol: This generation of Parents suck.

I think there are several reasons kids suffer today. One major reason would be people having kids too young. You end up with a mother who can't support herself much less her children and a father who is too young/immature and not willing to buck up to responsibility. The kids are doomed from the start. And even if the couple does buck up and manage to stay together long enough to actually raise the children together- it costs so much to live at what we consider a quality lifestyle, that both parents have to work just to pay the bills- and the kids end up in daycare 90% of the time. I have sat and thought about the same situation before- as to what could be a real solution... the only thing I could come up with is a couple willing to live within their means so that one could stay home and raise the kids and the other could work to support the family. Even with less income I truly believe if you could be satisfied with this lifestyle the family unit could be what it was intended to be. I'm 32 and have spent my life chasing the $$$... now that I finally have money, I have discovered money really does not bring happiness. I would trade everything I have for a good women and a happy family. WILD WOMEN AND ALCOHOL SEEM TO SUSTAIN ME FOR SHORTER AND SHORTER PERIODS OF TIME AS EACH YEAR PASSES. GOOD THREAD.

my sister is 26, my neice is 9 years old. she's is a very well educated girl, my sister is not with my neices father. she is now married to a guy who is a certified electrician, and they make a great family. the couple staying together is not always the answer, those of us in seperated familes know that sometimes seperation is the best answer. my mom is much happier, and i didnt have to see my parents fight anymore. my older sister had a kid "too young" but she overcame her mistake, some people yeah it's a problem my neices dad is almost 30, and still does not have a full time job, and now has another kid with some young dumb girl. My sister never allowed her daughter to just be with a "babysitter" she was always with my mom or her great grandma, because she wanted that solidility in her life. I also have a baby sister that is 5 years old. yes...my oldest sister is 31, and my youngest is 5, i am in the middle at 21. My baby sister is EXTREMLY smart for her age, and is given the most wholesome childhood my mom can offer because she doesnt want her to grow up in an atmosphere like me and my other sisters had to grow up in. she was just telling me today how if you ask my sister if her mom and dad fight she will say no, because they keep it out of her ear and eye shot. as bad as society is today it's HARD to raise a kid completely innocent. the way kids are raised from 1-10 is the most important time of their life, it teaches them respect, responsibilty, and descision making skills. parents that let their kids get away with anything and give them everything, those are the kids that never learn that they cant get away with everything forever, and this is life, sometimes you gotta flip burgers to make ends meet. even my generation, people around 20-27, are too PICKY because they've been too spoiled, about job. they sit at home (still with their parents) with no gas money and complain their broke, but the nearest mcd's needs people to fill hours when all the high school kids are still at school, but they wont take those jobs because they feel their above that. My best friend im stitting here with right now, we used to work together for comcast, we both got canned for losing our licences over unpaid tickets. I was out of work for a month, i finally got the job i have now (still have it a year later) and i hated it at first. i now am a leader of my own crew and make 70K plus a year. my friend, did everything he had to do to make ends meet, he worked at the mall at a cell phone kiosk 12 hours a day 5 days a week for 8 dollars an hour, even though he hated going to worke everyday, he knew he had responsibilities. more people in our generation need to learn responsibility, thats one of the biggest problems, too many parents trying to give kids "a better life than they had" because they had to work so hard to get the big house and 2 brand new cars they have, not realize that the life their parents provided for them as a kid is what got them where they are. kids dont need big screen tv's and their own laptop and surround sound in their room. I had things i wanted as a kid, ps2, and my own computer...that was a used pos that i did extra chores to get, and leanred that nothing is free. now i have all the toys someone my age would want, because my parents taught me nothing is free and if you want something you gotta work for it.

good post NTS. very well said. daycare providers are more like surrogate parents nowadays. they spend more time with the children than the parents do. it is an underpaid occupation that deserves much respect. :cheers: to you for being a positive role model for these children. they need that. :dthumb:

good post NTS. very well said. daycare providers are more like surrogate parents nowadays. they spend more time with the children than the parents do. it is an underpaid occupation that deserves much respect. :cheers: to you for being a positive role model for these children. they need that. :dthumb: apologize, i totally missed this major point in my rant. I didnt mean to disrespect daycare personnel, because sometimes they are the saving grace in a childs life, who have those parents that appear to think children are a bill and an object, rather than a life. i have seen people who's teacher/coaches etc.. are a stronger factor in their life than the parents are. forgot to address that. itgirl you are right, it is a very underpaid occupation that does deserve much respect.

In my brief experiences with daycare it seems like a pretty thankless and underappreciated job similar to teaching. It's kind of like the whole buying a cheap helmet thing, how much is your head worth. People shop around for the cheapest daycare...it's your kids!!!! Personally I believe parents should be just that, parents. the minute you have kids you choose a different life style, maybe it's time to stop going out to parties every night and letting daycare and the teenage babysitter next door raise your kid. And I also agree people should be allowed to parent without fear of what a neighbor or some stranger in a grocery store thinks. Now I'm sorry if I offend, some of my rant is directed at a certain couple people in my head. Maybe I get a little hot about this subject cause of how hard my wife and I had to try to have a child while there are people out there popping them out left and right to get yet another tax deduction. Before I start getting fired up, I'll say...Nice Post NTS....rep'd

apologize, i totally missed this major point in my rant. I didnt mean to disrespect daycare personnel, because sometimes they are the saving grace in a childs life, who have those parents that appear to think children are a bill and an object, rather than a life. i have seen people who's teacher/coaches etc.. are a stronger factor in their life than the parents are. forgot to address that. itgirl you are right, it is a very underpaid occupation that does deserve much respect. you made good points in your post as well. it sounds like your family is on the right track for success. thay have put the best interests of the child first...the way it should be. :dthumb: sometimes i honestly think that the 'bad parents' we refer to don't even know that they are bad parents. they are just oblivious and think they are doing things right. :nonod: their poor children...

you made good points in your post as well. it sounds like your family is on the right track for success. thay have put the best interests of the child first...the way it should be. :dthumb: sometimes i honestly think that the 'bad parents' we refer to don't even know that they are bad parents. they are just oblivious and think they are doing things right. :nonod: their poor children... that is a great point. They probably grew up in a similar fasion and just pass on what they know.

Personally I believe parents should be just that, parents. the minute you have kids you choose a different life style, maybe it's time to stop going out to parties every night and letting daycare and the teenage babysitter next door raise your kid. And I also agree people should be allowed to parent without fear of what a neighbor or some stranger in a grocery store thinks. :iagree: that is such a no-win situation. if you don't correct your screaming child people judge you...but if you do discipline them in public people judge you for doing that as well. :scratch: what are we supposed to do? :idk:

i love these parenting discussions, but they sure can heat up pretty quickly. maybe it's because i don't take parenting lightly. i let people's comments get me all riled up sometimes, especially if they don't have kids.

:iagree: that is such a no-win situation. if you don't correct your screaming child people judge you...but if you do discipline them in public people judge you for doing that as well. :scratch: what are we supposed to do? :idk: I know what happened to me, I got drug to the restroom where all hell broke loose:lol:

ha ha! that's a good idea...:dthumb:

I'm going to politely ask that you people stop writing books with your replies. :crazy:

I'm going to politely ask that you people stop writing books with your replies. :crazy: just read the first sentence of each paragraph. you'll get the main idea from that. :lol:

I know what happened to me, I got drug to the restroom where all hell broke loose:lol: this happend to me one time. im 21 years old and i still remember it like it was yesterday. dont remember what i did wrong but i was actin a fool in kmart. my mom took me to the restroom and fixed my wagon. I myself am not a parent, i just can relate from the kids point of view, and being the middle kid in such a widespread family...i see alot. like itgirl said, parents dont realize they're being "bad" parents. thats what i mean about these parents that want to provide "what they didnt have as a kid" they think they're helping but those are most of the kids that i see the most problem with. they dont crack down on them to actually try in school, and they give them whatever they want.

just read the first sentence of each paragraph. you'll get the main idea from that. :lol: Good thinking! :cheers:

I'm going to politely ask that you people stop writing books with your replies. :crazy: im in a very intellectual state of mind. i love discussion. especially about parenting. alot of people talked bad about my mom..but i came out a pretty good young man...and my mom was not exactly suzie homemaker. very good woman, but not the neighborhood favorite.

Regulating who can be a parent, hell let's just start altering DNA to make sure all kids are obedient.

I myself am not a parent, i just can relate from the kids point of view, and being the middle kid in such a widespread family...i see alot. i wouldn't have guessed you don't have kids. you sound like you have the experience. that's good though. when you do have kids you'll know the right way to do things. you'll be ready. :dthumb:

Regulating who can be a parent, hell let's just start genetically altering DNA to make sure all kids are obedient. if only we could do that. :lol: but that would kinda put parents outta a job.

if only we could do that. :lol: but that would kinda put parents outta a job. Someone still has got to feed the little robots. :lol: I am not a fan of giving the government more control over life.

i wouldn't have guessed you don't have kids. you sound like you have the experience. that's good though. when you do have kids you'll know the right way to do things. you'll be ready. :dthumb: thanks, appreciate that thats a hell of a compliment. my dad is....he's ok...we're not on speaking terms right now, although i want to fix that, my mom has always been very very open with me and i feel good talking to her about anything, and that gets me through alot of life. she's been there for me when i talk about relationship problems..going out to the club, drinking, anything, she talked to me ALOT when i was in high school about drugs and stuff, and it made me feel alot more comfortable if i ever was in a situation i could talk to her. I had to grow up fast and learn some responsibility, and thats why i am how i am. When i was a teenager rules pissed me off, but now i cant thank my mom enough for cracking down on me at the right time.

Wow, there have been some great posts in this one!!! Props to all of you for having good sense, now if only we could share it with the rest of the people procreating!! sorry Marko... I myself came from a rather rough background, my real dad was a loser and did a bunch of stupid crap, too much to get into...and when I was 2 my mom took me and left (its was kinda a soap opera, we literally had to hide for years). I remember growing up watching my mom fight and struggle for everything we had, we even grew our own food at one of the places we lived, my mom made it a game,there were so many things that I never knew until I became an adult, I remember as a lil tiny kid, not even 5 when we would cuddle up on the weekends and watch Johnny Carson and other stuff, it was awesome to me, I didnt know until years later that we had to cuddle up like that cuz we couldnt pay for heat, she took me to work with her every day till I started school, she kept crappy jobs so that she could do so, she went through alot...but her pride did not allow her to just quit and give up and take handouts from welfare or crap...I grew up quick cuz I had to but I dont regret it or blame my mom, I am glad that we went through the things we did and I know that by just watching my mom I learned from her all the values that I hold today...she married my stepdad when I was 10 (i introduced them) and he is the only daddy I need, and yes, I still call him daddy, at 25 years of age and he too has taught me all the old fashioned values that most of these parents (around my age) today either dont know about or dont care to follow (like spending time with your kids!!). I always said that when I have kids I want them to have everything I didnt, and I wanted to raise them myself, not at daycare 24/7!! But by golly, they will work for it and earn it so they are raised with the same values and honor and they will have a sense of family!!! (And yes, you may think "honor" is a silly term, but for me, Honor & Pride (in a good way), are some of the guiding factors of my life, I wont take charity, I work hard for what I want and I do it the right way!!) If more people today had the same sense pounded into their heads like our parents or their parents did, we wouldnt even need to have this discussion!!!

Wow, there have been some great posts in this one!!! Props to all of you for having good sense, now if only we could share it with the rest of the people procreating!! sorry Marko... I myself came from a rather rough background, my real dad was a loser and did a bunch of stupid crap, too much to get into...and when I was 2 my mom took me and left (its was kinda a soap opera, we literally had to hide for years). I remember growing up watching my mom fight and struggle for everything we had, we even grew our own food at one of the places we lived, my mom made it a game,there were so many things that I never knew until I became an adult, I remember as a lil tiny kid, not even 5 when we would cuddle up on the weekends and watch Johnny Carson and other stuff, it was awesome to me, I didnt know until years later that we had to cuddle up like that cuz we couldnt pay for heat, she took me to work with her every day till I started school, she kept crappy jobs so that she could do so, she went through alot...but her pride did not allow her to just quit and give up and take handouts from welfare or crap...I grew up quick cuz I had to but I dont regret it or blame my mom, I am glad that we went through the things we did and I know that by just watching my mom I learned from her all the values that I hold today...she married my stepdad when I was 10 (i introduced them) and he is the only daddy I need, and yes, I still call him daddy, at 25 years of age and he too has taught me all the old fashioned values that most of these parents (around my age) today either dont know about or dont care to follow (like spending time with your kids!!). I always said that when I have kids I want them to have everything I didnt, and I wanted to raise them myself, not at daycare 24/7!! But by golly, they will work for it and earn it so they are raised with the same values and honor and they will have a sense of family!!! (And yes, you may think "honor" is a silly term, but for me, Honor & Pride (in a good way), are some of the guiding factors of my life, I wont take charity, I work hard for what I want and I do it the right way!!) If more people today had the same sense pounded into their heads like our parents or their parents did, we wouldnt even need to have this discussion!!! absolutely. giving your kids what you didnt have (heat and such) is nothing bad, even getting them cool toys like playstations and all that jazz there is nothing wrong with it so long as they earn it and understand that things dont come without a price and money doesnt grow on trees. and there is a difference between charity and handouts. Life happens, a very good friend of mine...met this family in his old neighborhood who have like 3 kids...the parents are flat out deadbeats. very irresponsible...he needed a place and so did they, so they went and rented this house together, he rents the basement they rent the rest. he basically supports them when they dont have the money..his employer went bankrupt, he had no job. this guy would give you the shirt off his back and his last dollar if you needed it, and he told me he hadnt eaten but twice in two weeks!!! i couldnt understand why this guy, who has lots of great friends because he took alot of us under his wing and saved us from some tough downspirals as teens, wouldnt ask someone if he could come over for dinner or something. i told him you know i wouldnt give him money to go buy a case of beer or something bu ti would whatever i had to put food in his stomach, and he finally accepted. accepting "charity" when life happens is nothing to be ashamed of. one can only be so fortunate to have enough people in their life that care that much. never ever be too proud to ask for help, i find that sometimes when you try to "do it all by yourself" the emotional strain can be enough alone to take you down. friends and family are there for a reason. everyone that has posted in this thread should see the pursuit of happyness if you havent yet. total depiction of this thread. oh yeah, and about your mom taking crappy jobs...my mom was a topless dancer for many years, and then a bartender, she despised both jobs. not something im proud to admit, especially on a public forum, but we had food in our stomachs and a roof over our head, and my mom loves us and thats all that matters. i try to as much as i can for my mom nowadays.

good points, all of them...i was mainly referring to being useless and taking charity...like having 20 kids on welfare cuz you dont stop popping them out, while a single mom in bad straights cant get help cuz she actually has a job... I have no problem giving to people who need it, but I GIVE it, never loan it or expect any kind of repayment...if I have extra and I know someone who may need it...i pay it forward, b/c things like that do come back to you when you need it!!! (but if I needed it, I couldnt ever ask for it, i am just too proud...:idk: ) I am dying to see that movie!! What gets me is that its a TRUE story, its awesome!!!

good points, all of them...i was mainly referring to being useless and taking charity...like having 20 kids on welfare cuz you dont stop popping them out, while a single mom in bad straights cant get help cuz she actually has a job... I have no problem giving to people who need it, but I GIVE it, never loan it or expect any kind of repayment...if I have extra and I know someone who may need it...i pay it forward, b/c things like that do come back to you when you need it!!! (but if I needed it, I couldnt ever ask for it, i am just too proud...:idk: ) I am dying to see that movie!! What gets me is that its a TRUE story, its awesome!!! OH yeah that is true (ppl with 20 kids). My mom has a 5 year old (as previously mentioned) and was hit by a 19 year old girl, driving her dads dodge ram, drunk. My mom goes to physical therapy like 4 days a week, cant walk or stand for long periods, applied for welfare for her and my little sister, at least to put a few groceries in the cabinet (her and my step dad werent married yet, they just got married in dec, but been together like 12 years) and she was denied. She cant work, and they keep pushing her court case back another two months, another two months. So yeah...that i agree with..i f your capable, get to work. there's always SOMETHIGN out there that will buy diapers and babyfood, and income based housing. is it luxury, generally not, but you can survive, just like your mom did Rae, you know that when you care, ends WILL meet. I just hope society doesnt continue to decline, or im going to see a depression in my lifetime i think. and yes..the movie is AWESOME. i went and seen it with a lady friend i hadnt seen in 3 years, and we were discussing the movie a little at the begining we're both big film fans and she goes to film school in chicago, and after about 4 mins of "oh look at that, oh look at this" we went silent and didnt take our eyes of the screen or speak another word until the credits came on...i'll admit...i did get a little teary eyed at about 3 parts. one of will smiths best movies, deserves an emmy for sure.

man i cant imagine living without my dad growing up. we lived in the same house for a long time with a nice backyard and a nieghborhood full of young kids, who always ended up at my house (i have 3 siblings so all their friends would always be here). But me and my dad shared some special times, whether it was just going for walks in the woods, or him telling me stories, or him waiting there to pick me up at school....he had an office at home so he could be with us during the day when my mom taught, so dad was always home. He is awesome, he taught me a lot of values, like never make fun of people because they are different or poor (he grew up very poor), and dont judge people based on race, and always do the right thing. We went to church as a family every sunday, it was just awesome. I love my family, my dad is real close to me because he just was there when i grew up, he came to football games even though he knew nothing about football, all my track meets, he was my boyscout leader for 9 years, and he was probably my biggest influence for joining the army because he was in and he was a paratrooper...basically he was and is my hero. He is a great dad, he never had a father, so he knows how much it means as a young boy to have a good role model. Now a days when im home from school it doesnt seem like much has changed except im closer to him and my mom, esp after the teen years where i rebebled and wanted to be with my friends. I now find myself taking my dad and mom out to lunch, or going home and spending time with them, whether it be washing a car or watchin a movie. Bottom line is, i had a great child hood, and it has been such an influence in my life, for i have more friends than i can count, and am heading in a right direction. And when I have kids, im gonna be just like my dad.

man i cant imagine living without my dad growing up. we lived in the same house for a long time with a nice backyard and a nieghborhood full of young kids, who always ended up at my house (i have 3 siblings so all their friends would always be here). But me and my dad shared some special times, whether it was just going for walks in the woods, or him telling me stories, or him waiting there to pick me up at school....he had an office at home so he could be with us during the day when my mom taught, so dad was always home. He is awesome, he taught me a lot of values, like never make fun of people because they are different or poor (he grew up very poor), and dont judge people based on race, and always do the right thing. We went to church as a family every sunday, it was just awesome. I love my family, my dad is real close to me because he just was there when i grew up, he came to football games even though he knew nothing about football, all my track meets, he was my boyscout leader for 9 years, and he was probably my biggest influence for joining the army because he was in and he was a paratrooper...basically he was and is my hero. He is a great dad, he never had a father, so he knows how much it means as a young boy to have a good role model. Now a days when im home from school it doesnt seem like much has changed except im closer to him and my mom, esp after the teen years where i rebebled and wanted to be with my friends. I now find myself taking my dad and mom out to lunch, or going home and spending time with them, whether it be washing a car or watchin a movie. Bottom line is, i had a great child hood, and it has been such an influence in my life, for i have more friends than i can count, and am heading in a right direction. And when I have kids, im gonna be just like my dad. i'm pretty similar...but opposite. my mom was always there, call me a mommas boy, but my dad....me and him never clicked. the only time we've gotten along was this past summer. he retired and bought a boat, and we spent many a night at the bar, or day out on the boat together. other than that..we just have nothing. my mom was about to get her car repo'd because of her accidnt and not being able to work, i tried to come up with the cash to make her payment (i was on unemployment at the time and barely making ends meet myself, but i was selling anything i didnt need on ebay to help) i wasnt able to come up with the money...but that day i did go and take her and my little sister out to lunch, and take her to a dealership, where they had real good lease deals, so she could find a good cheap economical car that my step dad could afford to buy her on what he had left after the mortage..and she got a car 2 days later. so i know how you feel taking the parents out and stuff. After everything my moms done for me..i want to make sure she knows it didnt go unnoticed and she did raise a little boy that grew up to at least be a responsible young man. My most important goal in life, is to make my mom proud of me and happy. my dad...he's a big partier and stuff...he should be outgrowing that by now..but he goes out alot and leaves my sister to fend for herself on fridays to find rides to the skate rink and stuff, because "thats his drinking night." but he wanted her to come live with him. LAME. He doesnt seem to grasp what it's like to be a fulltime dad, since he's never really been one on his own, we've always lived with our mom after they split, and after they did divorce, he started skipping out on visitation and crap..which i got used to, but really hurt my sister. so from my point of view when I HAVE kids, i want to make sure to be a BETTER father than my dad was. he thinks money fixes everything.

Theres is too many long posts in here for lunch time reading. Good post Rae :dthumb:

:idk: I last saw my real dad when I was 6, he died about 4 years ago in a freak construction accident in Vegas...I never really knew him, I knew the truth about him from my family but I was always close with his dad, my grandpa, who still wears rose clolored glasses when it comes to him...my only regret this: a few days before he died my gpa called and asked if I wanted to get in contact with him, I said no, he hadnt been around the last 15 years, I didnt have time to deal with him now...he died 3 days later...i wish i had said yes so i could just ask him...:idk: my step dad has always been a big figure in my life since my mom married him, i hated him right after they got married but sometime along the way we made peace, sometimes I am closer to my dad then my mom...but I talk to both of them several times a week, both my parents and I are even closer now then we were when I lived at home...daddy has always been dad to me, taking me hunting, fishing, shooting, camping, whatever, he never treated me any differently than my sisters, his blood kids, and I know he's always there if I need him!!

i hear ya, ive always tried to keep the Mondello name clean and make my mom and dad proud, i just want them to realize that they raised a good kid and were awesome parents, i no they are proud of me, but im proud to have them as parents. My friend wasnt really close to his dad, so my dad was like a 2nd father to him, kinda like when my dad was little and his best friends dad was like a 2nd dad. Little kids just need someone to look up too, whether it be a older brother (which i am) or a mother or father. I love little kids, sometimes when i go get coffee or somthing after ROTC or drill a lil kid will be like wow your an army guy blah blah blah, and it just reminds me of when i was lil and saw an army guy i dont no if that makes sense:idk:

i hear ya, ive always tried to keep the Mondello name clean and make my mom and dad proud, i just want them to realize that they raised a good kid and were awesome parents, i no they are proud of me, but im proud to have them as parents. My friend wasnt really close to his dad, so my dad was like a 2nd father to him, kinda like when my dad was little and his best friends dad was like a 2nd dad. Little kids just need someone to look up too, whether it be a older brother (which i am) or a mother or father. I love little kids, sometimes when i go get coffee or somthing after ROTC or drill a lil kid will be like wow your an army guy blah blah blah, and it just reminds me of when i was lil and saw an army guy i dont no if that makes sense:idk: perfect sense. my friend that i mentioned that was flat broke and too proud to ask us for dinner, but would give any of us his last dollar or the shirt off his back, was the person i pretty much looked up to. he's older than me and i met him through an afterschool program when i was 15. started hanging out with him alot, playin computer games and doing things other than going out partying and gettin in trouble, even lived with him for a couple years after i turned 18, he kinda helped me make a smooth transition into adult world. he was someone i looked up to alot, landed my first "real" job thanks to him.

yea, i hear ya, i have a lot of good friends that i would give my last $ to help:cheers:

Okay here is my suggestion as what could change some things I know this will probably piss some people off but here goes. Have someone go to every mall in the country and simply offer one thousand dollars to any woman who will get her tubes tied, this method prevents government intrusion and I believe a large number of bad parents would take that offer in a heartbeat...:2cents: .:whistle:

Okay here is my suggestion as what could change some things I know this will probably piss some people off but here goes. Have someone go to every mall in the country and simply offer one thousand dollars to any woman who will get her tubes tied, this method prevents government intrusion and I believe a large number of bad parents would take that offer in a heartbeat...:2cents: .:whistle: sad, but probably true. not neccecarily saying it's a GOOD idea, but it would probably ring true.

I still like a modest proposal. Use that idea to feed the homeless and actually give the welfare baby machines a job. :lol: (note: I am being facetious, don't pitch a fit) I wonder how long before I get called heartless again.:lol:

I still like a modest proposal. Use that idea to feed the homeless and actually give the welfare baby machines a job. :lol: (note: I am being facetious, don't pitch a fit) I wonder how long before I get called heartless again.:lol: :lol:

O man this thing took off more than i thought it would, lets get started. I think there are several reasons kids suffer today. One major reason would be people having kids too young. You end up with a mother who can't support herself much less her children and a father who is too young/immature and not willing to buck up to responsibility. The kids are doomed from the start. And even if the couple does buck up and manage to stay together long enough to actually raise the children together- it costs so much to live at what we consider a quality lifestyle, that both parents have to work just to pay the bills- and the kids end up in daycare 90% of the time. I have sat and thought about the same situation before- as to what could be a real solution... the only thing I could come up with is a couple willing to live within their means so that one could stay home and raise the kids and the other could work to support the family. Even with less income I truly believe if you could be satisfied with this lifestyle the family unit could be what it was intended to be. I'm 32 and have spent my life chasing the $$$... now that I finally have money, I have discovered money really does not bring happiness. I would trade everything I have for a good women and a happy family. WILD WOMEN AND ALCOHOL SEEM TO SUSTAIN ME FOR SHORTER AND SHORTER PERIODS OF TIME AS EACH YEAR PASSES. GOOD THREAD. I totally agree with a lot of your posts, People are getting married and having kids IN THEIR EARLY TWENTIES AND LATE TEENS. People need more experience in life before they commit like that. my sister is 26, my neice is 9 years old. she's is a very well educated girl, my sister is not with my neices father. she is now married to a guy who is a certified electrician, and they make a great family. the couple staying together is not always the answer, those of us in seperated familes know that sometimes seperation is the best answer. my mom is much happier, and i didnt have to see my parents fight anymore. my older sister had a kid "too young" but she overcame her mistake, some people yeah it's a problem my neices dad is almost 30, and still does not have a full time job, and now has another kid with some young dumb girl. My sister never allowed her daughter to just be with a "babysitter" she was always with my mom or her great grandma, because she wanted that solidility in her life. I also have a baby sister that is 5 years old. yes...my oldest sister is 31, and my youngest is 5, i am in the middle at 21. My baby sister is EXTREMLY smart for her age, and is given the most wholesome childhood my mom can offer because she doesnt want her to grow up in an atmosphere like me and my other sisters had to grow up in. she was just telling me today how if you ask my sister if her mom and dad fight she will say no, because they keep it out of her ear and eye shot. as bad as society is today it's HARD to raise a kid completely innocent. the way kids are raised from 1-10 is the most important time of their life, it teaches them respect, responsibilty, and descision making skills. parents that let their kids get away with anything and give them everything, those are the kids that never learn that they cant get away with everything forever, and this is life, sometimes you gotta flip burgers to make ends meet. even my generation, people around 20-27, are too PICKY because they've been too spoiled, about job. they sit at home (still with their parents) with no gas money and complain their broke, but the nearest mcd's needs people to fill hours when all the high school kids are still at school, but they wont take those jobs because they feel their above that. My best friend im stitting here with right now, we used to work together for comcast, we both got canned for losing our licences over unpaid tickets. I was out of work for a month, i finally got the job i have now (still have it a year later) and i hated it at first. i now am a leader of my own crew and make 70K plus a year. my friend, did everything he had to do to make ends meet, he worked at the mall at a cell phone kiosk 12 hours a day 5 days a week for 8 dollars an hour, even though he hated going to worke everyday, he knew he had responsibilities. more people in our generation need to learn responsibility, thats one of the biggest problems, too many parents trying to give kids "a better life than they had" because they had to work so hard to get the big house and 2 brand new cars they have, not realize that the life their parents provided for them as a kid is what got them where they are. kids dont need big screen tv's and their own laptop and surround sound in their room. I had things i wanted as a kid, ps2, and my own computer...that was a used pos that i did extra chores to get, and leanred that nothing is free. now i have all the toys someone my age would want, because my parents taught me nothing is free and if you want something you gotta work for it. Like i said, there are exceptions. There is a family that brings their kids in, they have three girls and a boy. I love every one of them to death. The two older girls are the most well behaved in the whole center, and the two younger ones have a ton of potential. They take care of things at home and are allways interested to hear about whats going on with their kids during the day. They are both young and they both struggle, but they work hard and I really respect that. I too come from a family where nothing was given to me. My dad even made upwards of 115k a year. They knew that by giving me things i would not appreciate or respect them, and in retrospect i'm glad i was raised that way. good post NTS. very well said. daycare providers are more like surrogate parents nowadays. they spend more time with the children than the parents do. it is an underpaid occupation that deserves much respect. :cheers: to you for being a positive role model for these children. they need that. :dthumb: I do my best, Ive said a hundred times the only real reason im there is because i love it. I make in one night of bar tending what I make in a week at the daycare sometimes. The kids love when i ride my bike to work :wink: (but the director usually has a scowl on her face) apologize, i totally missed this major point in my rant. I didnt mean to disrespect daycare personnel, because sometimes they are the saving grace in a childs life, who have those parents that appear to think children are a bill and an object, rather than a life. i have seen people who's teacher/coaches etc.. are a stronger factor in their life than the parents are. forgot to address that. itgirl you are right, it is a very underpaid occupation that does deserve much respect. No offense taken, believe me. Some teachers can be a saving grace, but there are also some whom can prevent a child from blossoming. I know both. Me, Im on the fence. I like to let the kids get away with things because i know some of our rules are outrageous, but i also like to teach them new things. i love these parenting discussions, but they sure can heat up pretty quickly. maybe it's because i don't take parenting lightly. i let people's comments get me all riled up sometimes, especially if they don't have kids. Nobody should take parenty lightly, and from what i know about your family, you seem to be doin alright. Wow, there have been some great posts in this one!!! Props to all of you for having good sense, now if only we could share it with the rest of the people procreating!! sorry Marko... I myself came from a rather rough background, my real dad was a loser and did a bunch of stupid crap, too much to get into...and when I was 2 my mom took me and left (its was kinda a soap opera, we literally had to hide for years). I remember growing up watching my mom fight and struggle for everything we had, we even grew our own food at one of the places we lived, my mom made it a game,there were so many things that I never knew until I became an adult, I remember as a lil tiny kid, not even 5 when we would cuddle up on the weekends and watch Johnny Carson and other stuff, it was awesome to me, I didnt know until years later that we had to cuddle up like that cuz we couldnt pay for heat, she took me to work with her every day till I started school, she kept crappy jobs so that she could do so, she went through alot...but her pride did not allow her to just quit and give up and take handouts from welfare or crap...I grew up quick cuz I had to but I dont regret it or blame my mom, I am glad that we went through the things we did and I know that by just watching my mom I learned from her all the values that I hold today...she married my stepdad when I was 10 (i introduced them) and he is the only daddy I need, and yes, I still call him daddy, at 25 years of age and he too has taught me all the old fashioned values that most of these parents (around my age) today either dont know about or dont care to follow (like spending time with your kids!!). I always said that when I have kids I want them to have everything I didnt, and I wanted to raise them myself, not at daycare 24/7!! But by golly, they will work for it and earn it so they are raised with the same values and honor and they will have a sense of family!!! (And yes, you may think "honor" is a silly term, but for me, Honor & Pride (in a good way), are some of the guiding factors of my life, I wont take charity, I work hard for what I want and I do it the right way!!) If more people today had the same sense pounded into their heads like our parents or their parents did, we wouldnt even need to have this discussion!!! Agreed man i cant imagine living without my dad growing up. we lived in the same house for a long time with a nice backyard and a nieghborhood full of young kids, who always ended up at my house (i have 3 siblings so all their friends would always be here). But me and my dad shared some special times, whether it was just going for walks in the woods, or him telling me stories, or him waiting there to pick me up at school....he had an office at home so he could be with us during the day when my mom taught, so dad was always home. He is awesome, he taught me a lot of values, like never make fun of people because they are different or poor (he grew up very poor), and dont judge people based on race, and always do the right thing. We went to church as a family every sunday, it was just awesome. I love my family, my dad is real close to me because he just was there when i grew up, he came to football games even though he knew nothing about football, all my track meets, he was my boyscout leader for 9 years, and he was probably my biggest influence for joining the army because he was in and he was a paratrooper...basically he was and is my hero. He is a great dad, he never had a father, so he knows how much it means as a young boy to have a good role model. Now a days when im home from school it doesnt seem like much has changed except im closer to him and my mom, esp after the teen years where i rebebled and wanted to be with my friends. I now find myself taking my dad and mom out to lunch, or going home and spending time with them, whether it be washing a car or watchin a movie. Bottom line is, i had a great child hood, and it has been such an influence in my life, for i have more friends than i can count, and am heading in a right direction. And when I have kids, im gonna be just like my dad. Nor I. actually my dad is just starting to back into motorcycling and I'm really excited to have something we can still do together. Having respect for your parents is a must.

Okay here is my suggestion as what could change some things I know this will probably piss some people off but here goes. Have someone go to every mall in the country and simply offer one thousand dollars to any woman who will get her tubes tied, this method prevents government intrusion and I believe a large number of bad parents would take that offer in a heartbeat...:2cents: .:whistle: ummm...excuse me....but why not offer the $1000 to men for the vasectomy?! there are more deadbeat dads out there then deadbeat moms. and it is a less expensive/invasive procedure. it is the men out there spreading their seed, not women. :nonod:

everything everyone has said here has been some GREAT points. very open minded discussion on everyones part. basically what i see here is a bunch of people that come from all different kinds of homes and families, that have managed to find one hobby, that we all enjoy. i think it shows that we have one heck of a group of people here!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

ummm...excuse me....but why not offer the $1000 to men for the vasectomy?! there are more deadbeat dads out there then deadbeat moms. and it is a less expensive/invasive procedure. it is the men out there spreading their seed, not women. :nonod: You would have to pay men a lot more than a $1000 to have some doc cut down there. Honestly, I think you would get more women volunteers.

ummm...excuse me....but why not offer the $1000 to men for the vasectomy?! there are more deadbeat dads out there then deadbeat moms. and it is a less expensive/invasive procedure. it is the men out there spreading their seed, not women. :nonod: why not both the point is that it is a choice..:idk:

why not both the point is that it is a choice..:idk: i just didn't see both listed in your option. reproduction isn't just a woman's responsibility. i just want you to be fair. :dthumb:

ummm...excuse me....but why not offer the $1000 to men for the vasectomy?! there are more deadbeat dads out there then deadbeat moms. and it is a less expensive/invasive procedure. it is the men out there spreading their seed, not women. :nonod: Lets not go there, battle of the sexes style. We may be spreading the seed, but its on your farm baby. When the woman doesn't consent thats called rape and that doesn't account for too many births. surgery is not required, just responsibility. everything everyone has said here has been some GREAT points. very open minded discussion on everyones part. basically what i see here is a bunch of people that come from all different kinds of homes and families, that have managed to find one hobby, that we all enjoy. i think it shows that we have one heck of a group of people here!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: Amen brother, you make a good point:cheers: You would have to pay men a lot more than a $1000 to have some doc cut down there. Honestly, I think you would get more women volunteers. Vasectomy really is a lot easier to do and reverse. But there are now patches and shots for birth control that last up to 3 or 6 (I think) months that would be the less intrusive way to prevent birth.

i just didn't see both listed in your option. reproduction isn't just a woman's responsibility. i just want you to be fair. :dthumb: I didn't think of both till you pointed it out but I agree that it goes both ways so now I say offer a thousand dollars to any person who will permenantly forfiet their reproductive rights. I do think trip is right though probably more women volunteers.

Lets not go there, battle of the sexes style. We may be spreading the seed, but its on your farm baby. When the woman doesn't consent thats called rape and that doesn't account for too many births. surgery is not required, just responsibility. just so you are willing to tend the crops your seed produces. i don't wanna get into male vs. female either, but birth control isn't just the women's responsibility. it still does take 2 people to produce a baby, both should be responsible for contraception (even if it is easier for a woman to take care of). 2 methods of prevention are even better than one. okay, now i got that outta my system...:dthumb:

Lets not go there, battle of the sexes style. We may be spreading the seed, but its on your farm baby. When the woman doesn't consent thats called rape and that doesn't account for too many births. surgery is not required, just responsibility. Amen brother, you make a good point:cheers: Vasectomy really is a lot easier to do and reverse. But there are now patches and shots for birth control that last up to 3 or 6 (I think) months that would be the less intrusive way to prevent birth. the problem with the great options for birth control is people refuse to use it that is why I propose an incentive...:lol:

Vasectomy really is a lot easier to do and reverse. But there are now patches and shots for birth control that last up to 3 or 6 (I think) months that would be the less intrusive way to prevent birth. I know, but would you want someone chopping away down there for $1000? I sure as hell wouldn't. Unfortunately ITgirl, everything is not "fair" in pregnancy, so asking just ladies to do the surgery is acceptable. You have complete choice in having the baby, unfortunately for guys we don't have complete option in paying child support or if the pregnancy is aborted. You can choose to dispose of the kid without our consent, but we cannot choose to not support the child if we want an abortion and you don't. The field isn't level and never will be, just like life. "Fair" is not realistic.

I know, but would you want someone chopping away down there for $1000? I sure as hell wouldn't. Unfortunately ITgirl, everything is not "fair" in pregnancy, so asking just ladies to do the surgery is acceptable. You have complete choice in having the baby, unfortunately for guys we don't have complete option in paying child support or if the pregnancy is aborted. You can choose to dispose of the kid without our consent, but we cannot choose to not support the child if we want an abortion and you don't. The field isn't level and never will be, just like life. "Fair" is not realistic. you do have a choice if you don't want to support a baby...it's called a condom.

As the stepfather of two, 8 & 14, and the father of one, 21\2, i can tell you that being a parent is incredibly hard. It is, however, the most rewarding experience of my life. I do the best that I can to be a good role model for all of my kids. There are far too many people out there who never should have become parents. The biggest piece of advise I could give them is that you can no longer be selfish as a parent. You have to put the needs of someone else in front of your own wants and needs. If you can do this you are more than halfway to being a good parent. The problem is that far too many people are self absorbed to the point that they just don't care. The best thing to do is have a parenting class to go along with the sex ed class in high school. To show the realities of adult decisions. They are all taught that sex=babies. Maybe they should be told that babies don't come with an instruction manual.

you do have a choice if you don't want to support a baby...it's called a condom. So you have the right to not use birth control pills and then a second chance to have an abortion, but we only have one line of defense? I am not saying I think we should be exempt from child support if you refuse abortion, but it isn't "fair" that you have complete option in keeping the child. Personally, I don't believe in abortion completely.

So you have the right to not use birth control pills and then a second chance to have an abortion, but we only have one line of defense? I am not saying I think we should be exempt from child support if you refuse abortion, but it isn't "fair" that you have complete option in keeping the child. Personally, I don't believe in abortion completely. well, we are the ones carrying the child. i think that should count for something. our lives are forever changed, and not just financially. if you don't want a child, the best thing you can do is prevent it. i think i'll just agree to disagree with you on that subject. how's that sound? :dthumb: i do support the right to choose, but i could personally never have an abortion.

great thread ... but IMO it takes both male and female to creat a child so it should be both to be responsible to talk befor having any sexual activity to see how will the partner will respond ...there be less sexual activity and less kid's having kids cuz men then to f it up when talking...:lol:

well, we are the ones carrying the child. i think that should count for something. our lives are forever changed, and not just financially. if you don't want a child, the best thing you can do is prevent it. i think i'll just agree to disagree with you on that subject. how's that sound? :dthumb: i do support the right to choose, but i could personally never have an abortion. So you respect the right of women to choose if the kid is born, but you can't respect the choice of men letting financial responsibility fall on the woman alone. Morality shouldn't be an issue with your stance. I do think since you are the ones that carry the child that does count for something, you get to choose if the kid lives or dies, therefore monetary obligation to the child should be yours alone if guy wishes an abortion and you decide to keep it. This would mean the guy would release all parental rights to the child as well, he wouldn't be allowed to seek custody or visiting rights ever.

So you respect the right of women to choose if the kid is born, but you can't respect the choice of men letting financial responsibility fall on the woman alone. Morality shouldn't be an issue with your stance. I do think since you are the ones that carry the child that does count for something, you get to choose if the kid lives or dies, therefore monetary obligation to the child should be yours alone if guy wishes an abortion and you decide to keep it. This would mean the guy would release all parental rights to the child as well, he wouldn't be allowed to seek custody or visiting rights ever. actually I am inclined to agree with that statement...:leaving:

actually I am inclined to agree with that statement...:leaving: It makes logical sense, but the chance of this happening are about as good as me being complete ruler of the world. Socialists known as Democrats would never let this pass, I highly doubt Republicans would let it pass as well.

It makes logical sense, but the chance of this happening are about as good as me being complete ruler of the world. Socialists known as Democrats would never let this pass, I highly doubt Republicans would let it pass as well. :iagree:

Good post, NTS.

So you respect the right of women to choose if the kid is born, but you can't respect the choice of men letting financial responsibility fall on the woman alone. Morality shouldn't be an issue with your stance. I do think since you are the ones that carry the child that does count for something, you get to choose if the kid lives or dies, therefore monetary obligation to the child should be yours alone if guy wishes an abortion and you decide to keep it. This would mean the guy would release all parental rights to the child as well, he wouldn't be allowed to seek custody or visiting rights ever. i think too often sex is used not for reproduction purposes but for recreational purposes. lest we forget it's intent is to create human life. if you don't desire to create a life, abstain or use preventative methods. i don't know how a man could have unprotected sex that results in the creation of a life and he would disown that creation. how does one live with yourself doing that? again, if you don't want children...wrap it up. are you actually arguing that you should just be allowed to impregnate large numbers of women with no financial or moral obligations? if both parties agree to have sex unprotected then both parties should be held accountable for the consequences. whether the conception is intentional or not is a non-issue. by denying protection you are volunteering for the risk involved.

i think too often sex is used not for reproduction purposes but for recreational purposes. lest we forget it's intent is to create human life. if you don't desire to create a life, abstain or use preventative methods. i don't know how a man could have unprotected sex that results in the creation of a life and he would disown that creation. how does one live with yourself doing that? again, if you don't want children...wrap it up. are you actually arguing that you should just be allowed to impregnate large numbers of women with no financial or moral obligations? if both parties agree to have sex unprotected then both parties should be held accountable for the consequences. whether the conception is intentional or not is a non-issue. by denying protection you are volunteering for the risk involved. huh, so you are proposing that people take responsibilities for their actions :scratch: Excellent concept but I don't see it working anymore:sorry:

Lets not go there, battle of the sexes style. We may be spreading the seed, but its on your farm baby. When the woman doesn't consent thats called rape and that doesn't account for too many births. surgery is not required, just responsibility. Amen brother, you make a good point:cheers: Vasectomy really is a lot easier to do and reverse. But there are now patches and shots for birth control that last up to 3 or 6 (I think) months that would be the less intrusive way to prevent birth. hey now, you try taking something that messes up your bodily functions for years at a time, or causes cancer, or anuerysms, or heart problems, etc...and then tell me thats not intrusive, taking birth control is a big decision b/c the long term side effects etc can have drastic consequences...it would be much easier for a man to get snipped than a woman to be told after 20 years of the pill that she has cancer from the pill and has 6 months to live!! you do have a choice if you don't want to support a baby...it's called a condom. AMEN SISTER!!! I support everyones decisions to do whatever they want to do, my comment to NTS is merely to educate, not to offend, i pretty much see all sides of this issue...and understand all the points involved... honestly i think the idea about offerning the surgery is a good one, I would probably do it, but I am very different than many women...at the same time, guys, think about it, you get snipped, we get gutted...now tell me which is easier??? And yes it is every persons decision on what they do or dont do, but if a guy feels the need to go without protection and his girl doesnt have BC, and you get pregnant, its both your faults and you are both responsible, if the guy doesnt want the kid and she does, sorry man, but you made the decision to sleep with a girl on no BC and to do it without protection, you are responsible for that child, no matter what the woman decides...you were both silly for doing it in the first place!!! just my :2cents: apparently itgirl and I were typing the same thing at the same time!! :lol:

the protection thing is really a sensive subject, the best birth control is abstinence. If you dont want to deal with possibly have to support a child...keep it zipped up. youguys will say "easier said than done" but it's not. i dropped it cold turkey. i had a scare with an ex g/f cause we stopped using protection once we thought it was forever..and it wasnt. very young, very stupid descision. i got the scare AFTER we broke up too. My previous g/f, wanted to wait til marraige and i cant tell you how much stress that took OFF the relationship. Being in an abstinante relationship gives you opportunninty to REALLY enjoy each other, you spend more time going out, more time watching movies, and more time really talking to each other instead of "im bored..lets hmmhmm." Sex isnt for fun, yes well all know (i think) that it feels good, but thats not it's primary intention and it shouldnt be played with. No matter what precautions you take, accidents happen, condom breaks, girls body doesnt react to the birth control "oh my god we made a baby! we took all the precautions!" thats like going "well i was going to try and look down the barrel of my gun, i didnt unload it but my finger wasnt on the trigger" no matter how much you think it CANT happen, you cant guarantee you wont get shot in the face, unless you just take the bullets out all together. follow me? and to add. you shouldnt be havin sex with someone you dont love enough to have a child with anyway. not saying i havent done it...but we're not horndog 15 year olds here....it doesnt take THAT much to grow out of it. if you cant stand to spend your days with a person and not have a sexual relationship with them...maybe you should re-assess the relationship. cliffnotes- dont want a kid, keep it in your pants.

i think too often sex is used not for reproduction purposes but for recreational purposes. lest we forget it's intent is to create human life. if you don't desire to create a life, abstain or use preventative methods. i don't know how a man could have unprotected sex that results in the creation of a life and he would disown that creation. how does one live with yourself doing that? again, if you don't want children...wrap it up. are you actually arguing that you should just be allowed to impregnate large numbers of women with no financial or moral obligations? if both parties agree to have sex unprotected then both parties should be held accountable for the consequences. whether the conception is intentional or not is a non-issue. by denying protection you are volunteering for the risk involved. You already said you supported the right of women to choose, the woman can choose to not have the child if she doesn't want to accept financial responsibility. The moral stance has already been removed by throwing abortion into the mix. Morality is a nonissue in this theoritical debate. Protection has also been removed from this equation, because both parties have protection options and both have decided not to use them. So erase condoms and birth control pills from this discussion. We are strictly in the realm of options after conception and why a woman wields all the power once the child is conceived. If a man is religiously against abortion, he cannot stop it even if he is willing to take full responsibility and if he wants no responsibility he cannot escape it. I am not saying I believe this is how it should be changed to because my belief is nowhere near making the system fair, but I am trying to prove the point that you can't expect fair treatment between the sexs in procreation because it is not realistic.

the protection thing is really a sensive subject, the best birth control is abstinence. If you dont want to deal with possibly have to support a child...keep it zipped up. youguys will say "easier said than done" but it's not. i dropped it cold turkey. i had a scare with an ex g/f cause we stopped using protection once we thought it was forever..and it wasnt. very young, very stupid descision. i got the scare AFTER we broke up too. My previous g/f, wanted to wait til marraige and i cant tell you how much stress that took OFF the relationship. Being in an abstinante relationship gives you opportunninty to REALLY enjoy each other, you spend more time going out, more time watching movies, and more time really talking to each other instead of "im bored..lets hmmhmm." Sex isnt for fun, yes well all know (i think) that it feels good, but thats not it's primary intention and it shouldnt be played with. No matter what precautions you take, accidents happen, condom breaks, girls body doesnt react to the birth control "oh my god we made a baby! we took all the precautions!" thats like going "well i was going to try and look down the barrel of my gun, i didnt unload it but my finger wasnt on the trigger" no matter how much you think it CANT happen, you cant guarantee you wont get shot in the face, unless you just take the bullets out all together. follow me? and to add. you shouldnt be havin sex with someone you dont love enough to have a child with anyway. not saying i havent done it...but we're not horndog 15 year olds here....it doesnt take THAT much to grow out of it. if you cant stand to spend your days with a person and not have a sexual relationship with them...maybe you should re-assess the relationship. cliffnotes- dont want a kid, keep it in your pants. Im sorry friend, i have to disagree with you on that. Sex is great, any way you have it in my opinion. Like they say sex is like pizza, even when its bad, its not that bad. I cant even keep from having sex with rosy and her sisters for more than a couple weeks, and even then its just because i think to myself one day " oh **** im a pervert, i gotta cut it out for a while". Its in our genetic material to have sex, not necessarily to have babies. Yes you can argue that babies come from sex, but with birth control aren't we just just getting the best of both worlds? (I am speaking of men, by the way, I understand it is very natural for women to want to have babies, but for men its very different) hey now, you try taking something that messes up your bodily functions for years at a time, or causes cancer, or anuerysms, or heart problems, etc...and then tell me thats not intrusive, taking birth control is a big decision b/c the long term side effects etc can have drastic consequences...it would be much easier for a man to get snipped than a woman to be told after 20 years of the pill that she has cancer from the pill and has 6 months to live!! AMEN SISTER!!! I support everyones decisions to do whatever they want to do, my comment to NTS is merely to educate, not to offend, i pretty much see all sides of this issue...and understand all the points involved... honestly i think the idea about offerning the surgery is a good one, I would probably do it, but I am very different than many women...at the same time, guys, think about it, you get snipped, we get gutted...now tell me which is easier??? And yes it is every persons decision on what they do or dont do, but if a guy feels the need to go without protection and his girl doesnt have BC, and you get pregnant, its both your faults and you are both responsible, if the guy doesnt want the kid and she does, sorry man, but you made the decision to sleep with a girl on no BC and to do it without protection, you are responsible for that child, no matter what the woman decides...you were both silly for doing it in the first place!!! just my :2cents: apparently itgirl and I were typing the same thing at the same time!! :lol: Ya but sex just isn't as good with a rubber on, seriously:lol: . Ha but in all honesty birth control actually helps a lot of women get more regular with aunt flo and such (girls you know this, some guys might not around here). And Rae, Maybe 20 years of birth control will harm somebody a tad, but not in the scale you are talking about. First off most women wont take birth control for 20 years because they wont be sexually active for 20 years. average age for female marriage age is 21 or 22 (http://www.gedhtree.com/SinglePg/gedstats.htm) which means even if they start BC at 14 which is very very young, thats 8 years. Most girls wont start till college or a year before, so 17-18, and thats only 4 or 5 years. And even more most girls do not take it consecutively. I wear a rubber, but more b/c i don't want the clap or warts. never know now-a-days.

NTS, i am sorry hun, but you need to do your research before telling us ladies what BC can and cannot do... there are many women on it for a verrry long time for health reasons, not just to prevent pregnancy, and I will give you props for realizing that it does help some women with irregularities... but without going into detail, imagine taking a BC method like those shots you were referring to, do you know what it is?? Do you have any idea what it does to your body?? Can you ask a Dr. to tell you exactly what the side effects are and have him be RIGHT??!! I was on that shot for almost 3 years, the first 2.5 were easy no prob i loved it, the last .5 i started putting on huge amounts of weight, it caused a libido problem, it caused a depression in my metabolism...and the list goes on....i got OFF the shot when I realized I was having these issues, which my DOCTOR had no response to my inquiries concerning WHY he hadnt told me, the only thing he could say was, well a few years ago these things werent known yet, but NOW WE KNOW(but he hadnt bothered to let his clients know)!!! so maybe 20 years from now I am going to catch some type of rare cancer from taking this BC but they didnt know when i took it that it would happen...thats a chance i take...and also the fact that AFTER i got off the shot, my body was so screwed up it didnt know up from down when it came to womanly issues and it took 3 YEARS to somwhat become normal...and it still isnt totally fixed, and what happens if there is some other defect that could cause a problem with my future child, that THEY dont know about yet... and tell those women who used the patch and dropped dead of heart failure that those a just a "tad" SIDE EFFECT!!! As for your age scales, i dont know how old those research items are, but girls are getting on BC now as young as 12-13 and will be on it until the age of 40 or more, as with modern science women can get pregnant later and later in life...take my mom, who got off b/c right around 40 15 years ago, the Dr. said it should be okay, she was a lil too old to be having kids...and meet my 2 little sisters!!! I am stepping off my soapbox now, but please, unless you are a woman or plan to become one, dont belittle the choices and things we have to do... and keep in mind, many women are only on BC b/c their MEN/BOYS dont want to use protection!! What sacrifice is that man making in light of his lover??

and keep in mind, many women are only on BC b/c their MEN/BOYS dont want to use protection!! What sacrifice is that man making in light of his lover?? Women shouldn't rely on men to use condoms anyway, they should protect themselves. The responsibility is on everyone and no one seems willing to accept it nowadays. I am glad I am out of this game. I have no worries of my fiance getting prego, I can support her and even though I don't necessarily want a kid right now, it wouldn't upset me if she did get prego. I would probably end up being extremely happy if we did have an accident.

NTS, i am sorry hun, but you need to do your research before telling us ladies what BC can and cannot do... there are many women on it for a verrry long time for health reasons, not just to prevent pregnancy, and I will give you props for realizing that it does help some women with irregularities... but without going into detail, imagine taking a BC method like those shots you were referring to, do you know what it is?? Do you have any idea what it does to your body?? Can you ask a Dr. to tell you exactly what the side effects are and have him be RIGHT??!! I was on that shot for almost 3 years, the first 2.5 were easy no prob i loved it, the last .5 i started putting on huge amounts of weight, it caused a libido problem, it caused a depression in my metabolism...and the list goes on....i got OFF the shot when I realized I was having these issues, which my DOCTOR had no response to my inquiries concerning WHY he hadnt told me, the only thing he could say was, well a few years ago these things werent known yet, but NOW WE KNOW(but he hadnt bothered to let his clients know)!!! so maybe 20 years from now I am going to catch some type of rare cancer from taking this BC but they didnt know when i took it that it would happen...thats a chance i take...and also the fact that AFTER i got off the shot, my body was so screwed up it didnt know up from down when it came to womanly issues and it took 3 YEARS to somwhat become normal...and it still isnt totally fixed, and what happens if there is some other defect that could cause a problem with my future child, that THEY dont know about yet... and tell those women who used the patch and dropped dead of heart failure that those a just a "tad" SIDE EFFECT!!! As for your age scales, i dont know how old those research items are, but girls are getting on BC now as young as 12-13 and will be on it until the age of 40 or more, as with modern science women can get pregnant later and later in life...take my mom, who got off b/c right around 40 15 years ago, the Dr. said it should be okay, she was a lil too old to be having kids...and meet my 2 little sisters!!! I am stepping off my soapbox now, but please, unless you are a woman or plan to become one, dont belittle the choices and things we have to do... and keep in mind, many women are only on BC b/c their MEN/BOYS dont want to use protection!! What sacrifice is that man making in light of his lover?? Rae, I have done my research, and i explained i know what it can and cannot do. I know its hard for girls to think that guys may know a thing or two about womanly stuff, but i grew up around it. Lets consider numbers. Every year thousands of bikers are killed and more are seriously hurt. That doesn't stop any of us. I only mentioned the shot and the patch because they are new, more convenient ways to deal with BC. some chicks simply don't do it because they cant handle taking a pill the same time every day. There are other methods as well, like contraceptive rings, permanent (harmless) procedures that simply fuse the fallopian tubes and don't allow eggs to enter the uterus. Im really sorry to hear about what happened, truly. But like i said, lets look at numbers. Lots of girls are on birth control, and turn out perfectly fine. More than lots, really. Most. I'm not saying girls SHOULD be on birth control, because im going to wear a condom either way. I don't care if you take out your pill pack and show me you are up to date and have video proof you took your pill every day of the month. I just know i don't want to have kids and its my responsibility. So thanks for getting off your soapbox, I'm taking down my podium. You're doin just fine for yourself now anyways, rae, little miss thang: modeling in upscale motorcycle magazines. :drool:

NTS, i am sorry hun, but you need to do your research before telling us ladies what BC can and cannot do... there are many women on it for a verrry long time for health reasons, not just to prevent pregnancy, and I will give you props for realizing that it does help some women with irregularities... but without going into detail, imagine taking a BC method like those shots you were referring to, do you know what it is?? Do you have any idea what it does to your body?? Can you ask a Dr. to tell you exactly what the side effects are and have him be RIGHT??!! I was on that shot for almost 3 years, the first 2.5 were easy no prob i loved it, the last .5 i started putting on huge amounts of weight, it caused a libido problem, it caused a depression in my metabolism...and the list goes on....i got OFF the shot when I realized I was having these issues, which my DOCTOR had no response to my inquiries concerning WHY he hadnt told me, the only thing he could say was, well a few years ago these things werent known yet, but NOW WE KNOW(but he hadnt bothered to let his clients know)!!! so maybe 20 years from now I am going to catch some type of rare cancer from taking this BC but they didnt know when i took it that it would happen...thats a chance i take...and also the fact that AFTER i got off the shot, my body was so screwed up it didnt know up from down when it came to womanly issues and it took 3 YEARS to somwhat become normal...and it still isnt totally fixed, and what happens if there is some other defect that could cause a problem with my future child, that THEY dont know about yet... and tell those women who used the patch and dropped dead of heart failure that those a just a "tad" SIDE EFFECT!!! As for your age scales, i dont know how old those research items are, but girls are getting on BC now as young as 12-13 and will be on it until the age of 40 or more, as with modern science women can get pregnant later and later in life...take my mom, who got off b/c right around 40 15 years ago, the Dr. said it should be okay, she was a lil too old to be having kids...and meet my 2 little sisters!!! I am stepping off my soapbox now, but please, unless you are a woman or plan to become one, dont belittle the choices and things we have to do... and keep in mind, many women are only on BC b/c their MEN/BOYS dont want to use protection!! What sacrifice is that man making in light of his lover?? Not to mention regarding the Shot. I know three girls that have gotten pregnant on the Depo shot in the last year. It says it last for 3 months, and doctors won't give it more frequently, but each persons metabolism is different and it DOESN'T always work.

Women shouldn't rely on men to use condoms anyway, they should protect themselves. The responsibility is on everyone and no one seems willing to accept it nowadays. I am glad I am out of this game. I have no worries of my fiance getting prego, I can support her and even though I don't necessarily want a kid right now, it wouldn't upset me if she did get prego. I would probably end up being extremely happy if we did have an accident. Like i said its each persons responsibility to take care of themselves if they don't want a kid right away. good post, rept.

Not to mention regarding the Shot. I know three girls that have gotten pregnant on the Depo shot in the last year. It says it last for 3 months, and doctors won't give it more frequently, but each persons metabolism is different and it DOESN'T always work. Man that sucks, good to know JP. :dthumb: I think my girl was considering it, so I will let her know to do some research on it. Like i said its each persons responsibility to take care of themselves if they don't want a kid right away. good post, rept. I would return rep you, but I don't rep often and it says I gave you one recently. :lol:

lol, ya trip, we ALL know you dont rep often :wink:

damn sorry I missed this one. but I would have to say that I agree with alot of things most of you are saying. I would have to say that I agree with Trip in regards to the fact of if a women can chose to have the kid or not why cannot the man do the same. If the both made the decision of the 10 minutes of fun why can they both not have a say. ???? I don't see how thats sexist or anything else. if there is supposed to be equality on everything how come when it comes to this subject only the woman has a right to decide if they are going to be tied together for the rest of their lives?? When it took both of them to decide for that night. Furthermore condoms don't always work I know more then a few friends who have kids that always were condoms. I for one have a 11 year old son that I didn't mind taking responsibility for, but I always use a condom including the time he was conceived. Yes you can preach the just do have sex...:skep: but lets be realistic how many men or women are actually following that rule. :tt: I just believe that EVERYONE should have to take responisibilty for their actions and EVERYONE should have a say in the decision if there is going to be equality in between the sexes. ok I'm done :wink:

Man that sucks, good to know JP. :dthumb: I think my girl was considering it, so I will let her know to do some research on it. gawd, please let her do lots and LOTS of research, when I got on it they said it had the least side effects, blah blah and was the most accurate thing available at the time...and while i didnt get prego and some aspects were great, the things I had to deal with b/c of it just werent worth it!!!

And Rae, Maybe 20 years of birth control will harm somebody a tad, but not in the scale you are talking about. First off most women wont take birth control for 20 years because they wont be sexually active for 20 years. average age for female marriage age is 21 or 22 (http://www.gedhtree.com/SinglePg/gedstats.htm) which means even if they start BC at 14 which is very very young, thats 8 years. Most girls wont start till college or a year before, so 17-18, and thats only 4 or 5 years. And even more most girls do not take it consecutively. I wear a rubber, but more b/c i don't want the clap or warts. never know now-a-days. :scratch: what?! i started the pill when i was 17 and i am now 31. i'm at 14 years on the pill already, stopping only for 2 pregnancies. and i certainly hope to be sexually active for another 6 years. i'm not that freakin' old. and i plan on remaining on the pill until menopause. so that kinda blows your theory that women won't be sexually active or on the pill for 20 years. maybe i am an exception? :idk:

:scratch: what?! i started the pill when i was 17 and i am now 31. i'm at 14 years on the pill already, stopping only for 2 pregnancies. and i certainly hope to be sexually active for another 6 years. i'm not that freakin' old. and i plan on remaining on the pill until menopause. so that kinda blows your theory that women won't be sexually active or on the pill for 20 years. maybe i am an exception? :idk: to reassure you, not to get it started up again, no you are not in the minority, we dont even get really interested till our 30's anyway..and thats why they invented viagra, so the men can keep up!!

gawd, please let her do lots and LOTS of research, when I got on it they said it had the least side effects, blah blah and was the most accurate thing available at the time...and while i didnt get prego and some aspects were great, the things I had to deal with b/c of it just werent worth it!!! my sister was on the patch for awhile and she suffers from migraines. as soon as i saw the commercial stating that the patch could cause blood clots and such i told her immediately. it was definately in her best interest to get off that. she uses a different method now.

:scratch: what?! i started the pill when i was 17 and i am now 31. i'm at 14 years on the pill already, stopping only for 2 pregnancies. and i certainly hope to be sexually active for another 6 years. i'm not that freakin' old. and i plan on remaining on the pill until menopause. so that kinda blows your theory that women won't be sexually active or on the pill for 20 years. maybe i am an exception? :idk: A lot of people say and my coworkers agree that you ladies get a lot more frisky in your 40s too. :dthumb:

:woo: finally a good reason to look forward to getting older. :dthumb:

i also read somewhere that the body we have when we are 40 is the one we are stuck with. that's something for us ladies to keep in mind. if it ain't tight by 40, it ain't ever gonna be. i better get to work...

:woo: finally a good reason to look forward to getting older. :dthumb: seems like a sick twist of fate that you get friskier and we get (how should I say this) more pliable.

:woo: finally a good reason to look forward to getting older. :dthumb: A lot of people say and my coworkers agree that you ladies get a lot more frisky in your 40s too. :dthumb: haha its called desperation! Most of my older friends and cousins wifes have stopped using the pill after marriage. many stayed on it for a few years but i guess the flame went out.

seems like a sick twist of fate that you get friskier and we get (how should I say this) more pliable. :lol: so true!

haha its called desperation! yeah, we are desperate to find a 40 year man that can still keep an erection!

Yes you can preach the just don't have sex...:skep: but lets be realistic how many men or women are actually following that rule. :tt: I just believe that EVERYONE should have to take responisibilty for their actions and EVERYONE should have a say in the decision if there is going to be equality in between the sexes. ok I'm done :wink: this is true, but thats EXACTLY the point, yeah like i said, im not a virgin, i have sex for the feeling, but be prepared to accept responsibility for your actions or keep it zipped up, thats all im saying. If you think you are ready to have sex, but not ready to have a child...you should be neuterd (and i put it that way because thats basically the best way to describe it). i know sex is human nature, it's in our genes, but the SIMPLE answer is if you DONT want kids, DONT have sex! it's not hard to follow...really...it's really not hard. at first..yeah you'll have withdrawls, lol but you'll adjust and it's not that bad. this is MORE OR LESS for pre-marital copules, not so much married couples, because even if they havent decided "lets have a child" they have already entered into a very binding agreement, and have sortof already agreed to take each other and everything that may come with it..

this is true, but thats EXACTLY the point, yeah like i said, im not a virgin, i have sex for the feeling, but be prepared to accept responsibility for your actions or keep it zipped up, thats all im saying. If you think you are ready to have sex, but not ready to have a child...you should be neuterd (and i put it that way because thats basically the best way to describe it). i know sex is human nature, it's in our genes, but the SIMPLE answer is if you DONT want kids, DONT have sex! it's not hard to follow...really...it's really not hard. at first..yeah you'll have withdrawls, lol but you'll adjust and it's not that bad. this is MORE OR LESS for pre-marital copules, not so much married couples, because even if they havent decided "lets have a child" they have already entered into a very binding agreement, and have sortof already agreed to take each other and everything that may come with it.. Internet Porn the ultimate birth control....:lol:

Internet Porn the ultimate birth control....:lol: http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o302/saverok69/awful.jpg