CBR Rider 03-28-2005, 09:14 PM Stopped by and saw the new K1200S on Friday. Seems like a nice enough bike. Bars are way high though. They seem to be marketing it as a sport bike, but I would definitely put it in the "Sport Tourer" family. I mean who is going to be using heated grips at the track??
Anyway, I wouldn't mind one for the street. Of course, there are a lot of bikes I wouldn't mine owning...
jeeps84 03-28-2005, 09:18 PM Anyway, I wouldn't mind one for the street. Of course, there are a lot of bikes I wouldn't mine owning...
:withstupi My wife likes it to. Im still:skep:
I saw one last thursday... it sounds sweet... and I thought my canister was large :screwy: but it looks great and the blue & white model is smooth looking... but for some reason the other BMW riders had problems with the swing arm being on the wrong side...I couldn't understand it... :crazy:
ShanMan14 03-29-2005, 07:48 AM I mean who is going to be using heated grips at the track??
Why not heat the grips while you heat the tires? :lol:
zx636r 03-29-2005, 08:19 AM does it have a cup holder too????????
Gas Man 03-29-2005, 08:44 AM does it have a cup holder too????????
:lol:
:rofl:
But the real question is... is the cup holder, that we know is there, heated?
jeeps84 03-29-2005, 08:50 AM This is the one (first) that my wife likes and the other I would like to have.
Gas Man 03-29-2005, 09:01 AM OK... I'll retract my statement on THIS BMW... that's a desent looking bike that your wife has.... and the other one just looks mean!!!
jeeps84 03-29-2005, 09:09 AM OK... I'll retract my statement on THIS BMW... that's a desent looking bike that your wife has.... and the other one just looks mean!!!
She doesn't have one, she just likes it and wants one.
jetskifast 03-29-2005, 12:10 PM Bars adjustable ;) Already number of aftermarket pipes on market.
Anybody who rides on street knows value of heated grips :dthumb:
jeeps84 03-29-2005, 12:43 PM Bars adjustable ;) Already number of aftermarket pipes on market.
Anybody who rides on street knows value of heated grips :dthumb:
Works allot better than stopping and holding the pip to get the feeling back in you fingers. :lol:
No Worries 03-29-2005, 01:48 PM Don't go by anyone's opinion on the new S-model, form your own. BMW is having an open-house in April, with test rides of the new S. Go to http://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/openhouse_2005/openhouse_dealer.jsp and see if a BMW dealer in your neighborhood is participating. Mine is on April 9th. Woo Hoo.
Gas Man 03-29-2005, 10:03 PM Works allot better than stopping and holding the pip to get the feeling back in you fingers. :lol:
I totally do that all the time!!! At least in the early and late season...
No worries... I think so of the WOS guys need to check that out!!!
jetskifast 03-31-2005, 03:16 AM Don't go by anyone's opinion on the new S-model, form your own. BMW is having an open-house in April, with test rides of the new S. Go to http://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/openhouse_2005/openhouse_dealer.jsp and see if a BMW dealer in your neighborhood is participating. Mine is on April 9th. Woo Hoo.
If you donot want to deal with crowds, most BMW dealers will let you test drive bikes for hour on youre own :cheers:
Gas Man 03-31-2005, 07:26 AM Well, I'm going to settle this debate.... a bunch of us in WOS have alreay pre-registered to go ride one of these beasts!!
jeeps84 03-31-2005, 09:13 AM Well, I'm going to settle this debate.... a bunch of us in WOS have alreay pre-registered to go ride one of these beasts!!
Lets us know what you think! I'm sure you will anyway! :lol:
jeeps84 03-31-2005, 09:14 AM If you donot want to deal with crowds, most BMW dealers will let you test drive bikes for hour on youre own :cheers:
They want a hefty deposit to show serious intent at my stealer. :sob:
jetskifast 03-31-2005, 10:35 AM They want a hefty deposit to show serious intent at my stealer. :sob:
Bay Area dealers just make sure you have motorcycle license, have you sign paper you are reponsible for crash damage.
Never any sales pressure :cheers:
jetskifast 03-31-2005, 10:36 AM Well, I'm going to settle this debate.... a bunch of us in WOS have alreay pre-registered to go ride one of these beasts!!
Enjoy :dthumb:
GSXR1000DJ 03-31-2005, 11:04 AM Well, I'm going to settle this debate.... a bunch of us in WOS have alreay pre-registered to go ride one of these beasts!!
You will need to post about that when your done and get a pic of who ever is on it to post as well. :dthumb:
No Worries 03-31-2005, 11:26 AM If you donot want to deal with crowds, most BMW dealers will let you test drive bikes for hour on youre own :cheers:
Probably any place would allow a test ride if I was serious about buying a new bike. But I'm not, and I don't want a salesman or woman hounding me. When I go to a dealer, I hang out in the shop area. I just want to see how much better, or worse, the new "S" is compared to my old CBR. Plus I like riding someone else's new bike.
Gas Man 03-31-2005, 08:22 PM You'll find that most BMW and HD dealers will let you test drive a bike... it's just the sportbikes that most dealers won't let you...
2FURYUS 04-01-2005, 09:16 AM You'll find that most BMW and HD dealers will let you test drive a bike... it's just the sportbikes that most dealers won't let you...
That's the way here too.....ain't that F'd up.
Gas Man 04-01-2005, 12:58 PM It is for us legit guys!
But look at it thru their eyes... do you know how many squidly 19year olds would roll in there and mangle their crap!!!
jetskifast 04-02-2005, 09:09 PM It is for us legit guys!
But look at it thru their eyes... do you know how many squidly 19year olds would roll in there and mangle their crap!!!
Marin BMW had open house with demo rides for K1200S.
We arrived 1 PM to find out demo bike had been crashed, all other K1200S bikes had been sold :rant:
Gas Man 04-02-2005, 10:21 PM WOW.. sounds like WOS was there!!! :lol:
jeeps84 04-02-2005, 11:20 PM WOW.. sounds like WOS was there!!! :lol:
:lol: :screwy: :lol:
jetskifast 04-02-2005, 11:35 PM Two weeks San Francisco BMW has open house with K1200S demo rides. Few connections at SF BMW, purchased my bikes from them :thumbs:
No Worries 04-09-2005, 10:10 PM I rode the 1200S today at the BMW open house. The ride was 15 minutes, along a highway and then along some streets back to the dealer. Only four bikes on the tour, and the lead rider was a guy who raced in the boxer cup races.
The first bike I rode was the R1200ST. I had never rode a BMW before. First, I had to learn BMW's separate turn signals on each grip, and the shutoff on the right grip. Reving the two-cylinder engine at standstill makes the bike roll to the right from the engine torque. Weird. The fairing vibrates at idle, but the mirrors show more than my elbow. Once underway, it rode very nice, but the acceleration felt like it was missing some cylinders. Twice while downshifting, I skidded the rear tire. Nice bike, but not worth $16k.
Next up was the 1200S. The wheelbase on the 1200S looks super long, but the seating position feels just like my CBR. The four-cylinder engine is much smoother than the boxer, and accelerates much quicker. I was now used to the turnsignals. The windshield was low, but blocked the wind nicely. Acceleration was very quick. I really liked the digital gear indicator, especially when I tried to shift into seventh gear.
The suspension is electronic and can be controlled from the seat while riding. I set it to sport while riding and switching lanes on the highway. And while coming back on a rough street I set it to comfy and it really changed to absorb the ruts. At the end, I had to look under the fairing to see if it had forks. Nope. It had the new "Duolever" suspension. Worked great.
Was it worth $17k? I could get a used busa and R1 for the same price. Is it better than my old CBR? The suspension was definitely better, and the acceleration might be better, but I will stay with my "Old Faithful" for now thank you. But it was nice to try something different. Even had free food and drinks at the end.
Gas Man 04-09-2005, 10:38 PM NW, you had almost the same expierence I had today...
Dyno, Super, and myself all went on some test rides today at the BMW dealer...
It was a great time... besides for the dealers un-organized event at first.... Our "leader" was a self claimed MSF instructor.... but basically a "fun-governor".
My first ride, was also the R1200ST... I had a similar expierence with it. The mirrors were great for rear ward viewing, when they weren't be shaken off the bike. I found the opposing twin to be refreshing and fun to screw around with. It had some nice low end grunt that gave you the feel of some real speed. It did give a good torque move when in neutral. The gauges on all the BMW's are GREAT! Very easy to read and the gear indicator is a great feature. The bike liked to launch once you got it movin... otherwise, it wanted to staul when first releasing the clutch. Didn't like that too much and took some getting use to...
Then Dyno and I switched up... I got on the K1200S.... which according to the BMW guys is designed to be a Busa killer! Right from GO, this bike was fun and rather fast for what I was expecting. (I will give Jetski that much) The test bike I had, didn't have the electronic suspension to my knowledge. But it seemed to handle well. I was able to get a nice jaunt up the highway to about 135mph and it still wanted to go ALOT more!! I was also able to get 2 OK wheelies out of her before getting in sight of the dealership parking lot... one about 3ft off the ground and another about 2ft...
A few generic things I noticed about both bikes...
The anti-diving front suspension worked very well.... you couldn't dive the bike at all! Not at a light or under extreme braking.
The blinkers setup on the bars is JACKED!! they need to re-engineer that RIGHT NOW!! What a piece of garbage!!! That would be the first thing to go!! There is a seperate flasher button... the left button on the left side and the right on the right. No biggie there I guess... but then instead of having the elimanator on both sides, there is just 1 button for that on the right grip. The worse thing about it, is that everytime I hit the cancel I would inavertly twist the throttle! :wtf: :bonk: It's complete BS! I stopped using the blinkers completely and went to straight hand signals!! F those!!
Another great item on both bikes was the gauges... very easy to read and the gear indicator was a great tool for a guy that has never riddin that bike. Furthermore, I need to install one on my 9R so I can be like the BMW's and like Twisty!
The brakes were great and everything that most sportbikes have. With standard stainless steel braided brake lines, and the front brake being porpotianal makes it a snap to bring down to speed. That combined with the optional ABS and what confidence!!
I thoughly enjoyed myself on the BMW's and will consider one in the future if my tastes curve in that direction. Their craftsmenship, overall feel of quality and good engineering is a for sure selling point. Not to mention a standard 3 year/36K warrenty!
Overall, great bikes, a little more money for some refined machines!! :dthumb:
Gas Man 04-09-2005, 10:47 PM And Super test rode a R1200GS...super motard dual sport thing... not sure what he thought of that!!
And I forgot to mention that the shaft drives were really nice along with the single sided swingarms... looks way too cool!! (See pics in gallery)
After riding all those bike though... when we got on our sportbikes we felt like we were on pocketbikes...
I posted some pics in the gallery!!! Enjoy! (http://www.twowheelforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php/cat/504)
Also attached some as a highlight...
No Worries 04-09-2005, 11:45 PM Gas Man, I'm glad you agree. I honked the horn several times turning off the turn signals. Had to use the signals because the other riders were far behind. Forget to mention the brakes. We got off the highway at an unfamiliar exit. Had to hit the brakes hard and they stopped very nicely. I think it had ABS. On the S, I was doing 100 and it felt like 60. Be great for the Autobahn. Wish I could have taken it to the twisties. BMW seems to have a winner with the 1200S.
jeeps84 04-10-2005, 12:10 AM So do you guys still think the 12S is an old mans bikes or something comfy with power and handling?
Gas Man 04-10-2005, 03:51 AM I would say the later... I don't think it will take out a Jap liter bike but it is fast and comfy!
cerveja 04-10-2005, 05:58 PM Yeah, no doubt, them blinkers have to go. One On switch on the Left, One on switch on the Right, A seperate off switch on the right.....Tree switches where a single combo switch has been working for years. That's just insane. As if there weren't enough controls already, seat heaters, bar heaters, windscreen adjust, Dimmer/Bright/Flash to pass, Horn button. I am sure it would be something I could get used to in time, but to jump on it and ride it on any given sunday, no thank you. I think I was using my Nine of my Ten dollars of riding skills just keeping the controls understood.
However I must say the K1200 is a nice ride, handles nice, feels very solid, very German. Styling is very refined, paint jpb is not real flashy, very attractive ride. Handling and performance is right there. I guess if I was in the mood to blow 17Large there would be one sitting next to the Six. What I would not be buying is that opposing twin ST. Talk about a rattle box. Every time you gun the engine sitting still the thing likes to lay to the right. I've never been a fan of twins, and the opposing Boxer was no exception. It felt like I was on a detuned 250 Ninja, I really have nothing good to say about that bike except for the gear indicator. I've always felt that is a worthwhile feature and all sportbikes, shoot bikes in general, should have one.
jetskifast 04-10-2005, 10:17 PM Braking and anti dive system sold me on my K1200RS. Test ride took bike up to 80 MPH and just nailed brakes, said to myself have to have this bike.
Now have to try and make it to dealership this week for K1200S test ride :drool:
jeeps84 04-10-2005, 10:45 PM I will check it out for my self just for curiosity sake.
I didn't think I would want one from the start but have to try new things.
Gas Man 04-11-2005, 09:21 AM That anti dive is really cool...but it gives you the illusion that you're not stopping! Kinda wierd but you could get use to it REAL quick!
jetskifast 04-11-2005, 11:01 AM That anti dive is really cool...but it gives you the illusion that you're not stopping! Kinda wierd but you could get use to it REAL quick!
When you use front hand brake, computer takes control of braking by modulating front and rear brakes so you donot dive.
When you use rear brake only, your brakes are not linked.
No Worries 04-11-2005, 12:44 PM Braking and anti dive system sold me on my K1200RS. Test ride took bike up to 80 MPH and just nailed brakes, said to myself have to have this bike.
Now have to try and make it to dealership this week for K1200S test ride :drool:Yeah, if you like the RS then you will definitely love the S. Riding the ST behind the S, the rear tail light on the S looks weird. But after 15 minutes, it grew on me. Since you seem to be a BMW fan, are you like the Harley guys where anything more than two cylinders is sacrilegious? I have to agree with cerveja. Because from my 15 minutes of riding each, the two cylinder ST can't even begin to compare to the four cylinder S. I'd like to see how the S compares to the busa, ZX12, FJR1300, and old blackbird.
Gas Man 04-11-2005, 04:11 PM When you use front hand brake, computer takes control of braking by modulating front and rear brakes so you donot dive.
When you use rear brake only, your brakes are not linked.
I knew that...
jetskifast 04-11-2005, 07:12 PM Yeah, if you like the RS then you will definitely love the S. Riding the ST behind the S, the rear tail light on the S looks weird. But after 15 minutes, it grew on me. Since you seem to be a BMW fan, are you like the Harley guys where anything more than two cylinders is sacrilegious? I have to agree with cerveja. Because from my 15 minutes of riding each, the two cylinder ST can't even begin to compare to the four cylinder S. I'd like to see how the S compares to the busa, ZX12, FJR1300, and old blackbird.
Owned number of 1000cc plus rice rockets before purchasing first BMW. Purchased F650GS for vacation home, riding trails and back roads so on. When I took F650GS in for 600 mile service. K1200RS was sitting out front. Dealer gave me keys and said bring it back in an hour, rest was history.
Never had any interest in BMW twin including big duel purpose bike, to heavy for what I want to do off road :thumbs:
Gas
Others may not know that :dthumb:
Gas Man 04-11-2005, 08:01 PM Yeah... the brakes are pretty desent... including the ABS... that would be nice on my bike!!
jeeps84 04-11-2005, 09:28 PM Yeah... the brakes are pretty desent... including the ABS... that would be nice on my bike!!
I don't think I would like it on a pure breed Sport Bike. :2cents:
Gas Man 04-12-2005, 08:00 AM I'm not sure... it might be nice... it definately would be more safe I'm sure... but who cares about safety... :whistle:
jeeps84 04-12-2005, 09:28 AM You would have to learn to ride fast all over again.
Gas Man 04-12-2005, 09:54 AM You would have to learn to ride fast all over again.
maybe???
capecodbob 10-10-2005, 09:06 AM Just sold my Harley Vrod and picked up a new K1200S.
Holy Crap!!! What a difference.
Just got her home this week. Did almost 200 miles the first day I had the bike. Can't get the grin off my face...
Power, ABS brakes, adj. suspension, all this makes the bike a terrific ride.
It's been raining since day 2 of ownership and I'm going nuts. Don't have any good rain gear but I'm thinking of going for a ride anyway.
Bob
Gas Man 10-10-2005, 10:17 AM :welcome: cape! I rode one of those and I though it was amazing... just see the second page of this thread...post 30 & 31
capecodbob 10-10-2005, 11:58 AM Just went and read them and you're observations are very good.
Not sure what all the blah blah is about on the turn sigs. They're really not an issue with me.
I can't belive I paid about the same $$ for the VRod as the K1200S and the BMW is so superior in every way.
Even got a discount off msrp on the BMW and 1/2 price on a new helmet and clothing. Took me most of a day to wear down the owner...who is a really great guy and racer.
My nephew has a Busa and I looked very closely at that bike but the BMW is what I really wanted once I compared the two bikes.
Bob
Gas Man 10-10-2005, 04:29 PM Well you know what they say... they made the BMW K1200S as a Busa killer... let us know if you guys line them up!
jeeps84 10-10-2005, 11:57 PM :welcome: Bob
Well you know what they say... they made the BMW K1200S as a Busa killer... let us know if you guys line them up!
:withstupi We need all the details.
capecodbob 10-17-2005, 09:07 AM Hope to catch my nephew on his Busa soon. He lives about 55miles from my house. Might have to take a ride out his way to show him the new ride.
I don't think he'll be disappearing on me when we hit the streets.
But, he might be try'in to catch up with me... :rofl3:
jeeps84 10-17-2005, 09:19 AM Go catch that Busa if you can. I'm very interested in finding the outcome. :luck:
Gas Man 10-17-2005, 08:30 PM Go catch that Busa if you can. I'm very interested in finding the outcome. :luck:
:withstupi
snadamo 11-02-2005, 11:58 AM Hope to catch my nephew on his Busa soon. He lives about 55miles from my house. Might have to take a ride out his way to show him the new ride.
I don't think he'll be disappearing on me when we hit the streets.
But, he might be try'in to catch up with me... :rofl3:
Just saw my first k1200s. Same color scheme as in your avatar. from a very very far distance I thought it was a new Yammy with the retro paint. I got close enough and noticed that it was a k1200s. He turned on the freeway and just took off. No helmet though :bonk: hope you wear yours. ITs a quick bike for sure. I am also interested in the Busa 1200s outcome as well. Take it easy, and enjoy.
capecodbob 11-14-2005, 08:51 PM Well, did my 600mile service and can run the revs up. I must say that when you go from about 5K to 10K its a huge rush. It absolutely flies.
I can't see my nephew's Busa being any faster.
Weather is going away fast here in New England. Today was an exception as the temp got into the 60's and I think I put about 150 miles on the bike. Closing in on 1000 miles.
Probably catch up with the Busa at bike week in Laconia next year. Although if it's nice this weekend I might make the trip out to his house for some fun
jeeps84 11-14-2005, 09:01 PM It does get cold up there. Just make use of that 12v plug BMW's are infamous for.
capecodbob 11-14-2005, 09:07 PM Almost got the wife talked into moving south. Need more bike months.
Somewhere near Daytona!!!
jeeps84 11-14-2005, 09:10 PM That's to far south and to straight for me. :whistle:
Gas Man 01-08-2006, 04:21 PM Got some new pics of a 2006! It is still a way nice bike!! :dthumb:
Like the new colors as well!
http://www.twowheelforum.com/photopost/direct_data/521/medium/Cycle_World_152.jpg
http://www.twowheelforum.com/photopost/direct_data/521/medium/Cycle_World_155.jpg
http://www.twowheelforum.com/photopost/direct_data/521/medium/Cycle_World_154.jpg
http://www.twowheelforum.com/photopost/direct_data/521/medium/Cycle_World_153.jpg
:dthumb: :twfrox:
jeeps84 01-08-2006, 11:07 PM I would ride it.:dthumb:
R1up0n1 01-08-2006, 11:15 PM i guess I would ride it, but it's really not my style.
Gas Man 01-09-2006, 08:34 AM i guess I would ride it, but it's really not my style.
You don't really get it till you ride it though. It is a really nice bike with ALOT of nice features!
R1up0n1 01-09-2006, 11:21 AM You don't really get it till you ride it though. It is a really nice bike with ALOT of nice features!
I would expect that out of a BMW though.
Gas Man 01-09-2006, 07:49 PM Yep... get this...
...you can order a bike and choose options... can you believe that OPTIONS!! :D
jeeps84 01-09-2006, 11:32 PM It is a BMW
R1up0n1 01-09-2006, 11:34 PM It is a BMW
yup yup :D
jetskifast 06-10-2006, 10:54 PM Pictures make me want to buy bike:crazy: When garage gets repaired 99% sure this will be my next bike:dthumb:
Got some new pics of a 2006! It is still a way nice bike!! :dthumb:
Like the new colors as well!
http://www.twowheelforum.com/photopost/direct_data/521/medium/Cycle_World_152.jpg
http://www.twowheelforum.com/photopost/direct_data/521/medium/Cycle_World_155.jpg
http://www.twowheelforum.com/photopost/direct_data/521/medium/Cycle_World_154.jpg
http://www.twowheelforum.com/photopost/direct_data/521/medium/Cycle_World_153.jpg
:dthumb: :twfrox:
Gas Man 06-10-2006, 11:00 PM Well I rode one and pulled a desent all throttle wheelie with it...
I think they ROCK!
jeeps84 06-11-2006, 01:57 AM I'm still waiting for my ride.:tt:
eaglerider94 08-24-2006, 03:37 PM Just went and read them and you're observations are very good.
Not sure what all the blah blah is about on the turn sigs. They're really not an issue with me.
I can't belive I paid about the same $$ for the VRod as the K1200S and the BMW is so superior in every way.
Even got a discount off msrp on the BMW and 1/2 price on a new helmet and clothing. Took me most of a day to wear down the owner...who is a really great guy and racer.
My nephew has a Busa and I looked very closely at that bike but the BMW is what I really wanted once I compared the two bikes.
Bob
I also have a corvette and this K1200S is on my wish list. I currently ride a Honda customized ACE.
jeeps84 08-24-2006, 03:44 PM I also have a corvette and this K1200S is on my wish list. I currently ride a Honda customized ACE.
So what's holding you back? Sale the Honda and what ever cage you have and buy what you want.
eaglerider94 08-24-2006, 03:49 PM So what's holding you back? Sale the Honda and what ever cage you have and buy what you want.
In due time. Have to buy a home in So. CA. 1st before I show up with a new bike. My wife is cool but that would be pushing it.
jeeps84 08-24-2006, 04:44 PM In due time. Have to buy a home in So. CA. 1st before I show up with a new bike. My wife is cool but that would be pushing it.
:luck: with that. Everything over there is :crazy: priced.
sfarson 08-25-2006, 11:08 PM So what's holding you back? Sale the Honda and what ever cage you have and buy what you want.
This is what I did. Got ride of the Audi and bought some bikes. No regrets.
Since this is a K1200S thread...
http://www.farson.com/bmw/ksbald800.jpg
sfarson 08-25-2006, 11:17 PM I can't belive I paid about the same $$ for the VRod as the K1200S and the BMW is so superior in every way.
I'm not there the KS is superior to the VR in every way. Totally different purposes and classes of bikes. Maybe for the riding one has an interest in, the roads one wants to go down, the KS is superior. Excellent. For many who just want to cruise, probably ride in the city a lot, short country rides, they would opt for the V-Rod easily.
OneSickPsycho 08-27-2006, 09:49 PM Got some new pics of a 2006! It is still a way nice bike!! :dthumb:
Like the new colors as well!
That pale yellow... :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
TATER 08-27-2006, 10:11 PM Yep... get this...
...you can order a bike and choose options... can you believe that OPTIONS!! :D
i'll take one with the optional all wheel drive and a sunroof.... oh yeah the BMW valve stem caps.. they add 40 horse power..
marko138 08-28-2006, 06:52 AM I saw a yellow/black one at the dealer this weekend.
Gas Man 08-29-2006, 09:47 AM I'm not there the KS is superior to the VR in every way. Totally different purposes and classes of bikes. Maybe for the riding one has an interest in, the roads one wants to go down, the KS is superior. Excellent. For many who just want to cruise, probably ride in the city a lot, short country rides, they would opt for the V-Rod easily.
Exactly... don't loose sight of what a bike is created for. Too many do this. Especially with chopper guys wanting ungodly amounts of hp from a v-twin.
1BadCBR 09-10-2006, 07:14 AM I've never been a BMW sportbike/sport touring fan :disapp:
jeeps84 09-10-2006, 10:12 AM I've never been a BMW sportbike/sport touring fan :disapp:
They might not be for everybody. Myself included but you have to respect them for what they offer to motorcyclist and the auto industry.
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