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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-10-2007, 01:36 PM Thread Starter
 
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Helmet Aritcle

Wow. I really like the Throtlle Jockey column in the LA Time and Susan Carpenter is typically spot on with good reviews and decent motorcycle opinions. Plus Dan Neil's car reviews are great.

I was utterly dissappointed with this article though:

http://www.latimes.com/classified/au...autos-highway1

The dude that was quoted seems to have credentials, but some of those statements toward the end will lead a lot of folks down a bad path.

I sent some feedback to her. Hopefully the article gets edited or updated to state some caveats.

Sadly the article just before this one was about chosing gear and had a bit of info about leather grades.

BTW, here's some great discussion on flip up helmets and possibly why none have been Snell approved:

http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Helmets.html

I was hoping for a flip up someday. Kind of squashes those dreams.

Have a good one,

tony

Last edited by tonered; 10-10-2007 at 01:37 PM. Reason: typo
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-10-2007, 02:33 PM Thread Starter
 
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Hello,

I received a nice reply from the author. She was appreciative. It's good to have a gear advocate in a large newspaper.

Have a good one,

tony
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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-10-2007, 02:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tonered View Post
But some of those statements toward the end will lead a lot of folks down a bad path.
How do you figure? I think they are spot-on.... as long as a helmet has passed the appropriate standards, a more expensive version is not necessarily any more protective if it has passed those same standards. That's his point, I think...
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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-10-2007, 03:04 PM
 
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How do you figure? I think they are spot-on.... as long as a helmet has passed the appropriate standards, a more expensive version is not necessarily any more protective if it has passed those same standards. That's his point, I think...
yea- direct from article:

Prices range considerably -- from $30 to $700 -- though more expensive doesn't mean better in terms of impact protection.

"The standards drive the performance of the helmet. If you spend $700 for brand A and $600 for brand S and $200 for brand M, the performance is going to be very similar, assuming they all meet the same standard," said Thom. "You'll get something for your money -- nicer interiors, nicer finish -- but you don't get two or three times as much protection by spending two or three times as much money."

thats true. what did u see wrong with that?
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-10-2007, 03:25 PM
 
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i didnt like the second article really-it was 3years old, and the update didnt really update anything.

this is what i didnt like-in bold

"Executive Summary: Buy a half or full-face helmet that's 1) Snell certified, 2) comfortable, and 3) attractive. Within those constraints, spend whatever you're comfortable with. More expensive helmets may be more attractive and/or more comfortable, but they are no safer than less expensive Snell certified helmets. Buy a new helmet at least every five years. Destroy helmets that are significantly older than five years. Wear your helmet most of the time, especially on short trips close to home. Avoid the new flip-open helmets, as the hinge mechanism compromises the protection of your temples and eye sockets. At the time of this writing (7/04) no flip-open helmet has been Snell certified. Here's the official list of all currently Snell certified helmets."

i dont think snell certifies any half face helmets, and even if they do, byebye teeth, face, nose, etc. if you go down. and come on, wear your helmet most of the time?! if the law doesnt require you to wear it, i understand its a personal choice, but if you're gonna give advice(especially when its aimed at new riders), it should be wear it allllll the time.
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-10-2007, 03:29 PM Thread Starter
 
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The problem, as I see it, is that there has not been an extensive evaluation of real world crashes in a long time, esp as technology in all aspects of gear has advanced. Though it is appreciated and groundbreaking, even the Hurt study was localized to urban CA. Not much was studied in rural areas.

From the folks I heard from first hand when I was considering my helmet purchase, they had walked away from different accidents with less trauma wearing Snell helmets than DOT only helmets. Of course one crash is never identical to another, but it was the best I had to go with. With everything I have read since, I'm still convinced that I'd rather have a Snell or ECE helmet on in a 13.4mph crash or a 85mph crash.

I do believe the article could be correct on the stiffness ranking, I just don't like the comment that any DOT lid will do, esp with the conjecture that there is no sanctioning system in place for manufacturers. The article should have at least raised the question that a helmet purchase should involve some research on the testing methods as well as proper fit and use and possibly not sugggest that any helmet with a DOT sticker will do.

As in other examples relating to mainstream media, folks seem to latch on to any arguement that says they can take advantage of a lesser requirement. It takes ten or more times repeating the opposite with a ton of hard evidence to persuade folks back the other way.

The weird thing about the motorcycling hobby/sport, also in correllation to cars, is that in other sports, proper gear is a given. It seems that proper gear is secondary when applied to motorcycles, just as seat belts used to be in cars. As an aside, I look forward to a day when a four point seat belt may become commonplace.

The other issue I am skeptical of, in general, is that it has been suggested that some government tests of consumer items, such as cars, may not reflect real life. For example, certain vehicles that preform marginally in crash tests seem to otherwise do very well protecting occupants in sometimes horrific real world collision when you look at insurance bodily injury actuals. Go figure. Please understand that I do relaize that lab procedures have to approximate the real world and cover as many bases as possible.

I think most serious motorcylists agree, which I really like about TWF, that studies of motorcycle dangers on the whole are greatly underfunded in proportion to the number involved in the activity. I'm not for imposing more rules, except for manditory helmets, but even aspects of road construction, signage, training should be investigated as it relates to m/c safety. This was proven out in a recent fatality in this area and the softening of the MSF standards.

Deaths should not be the aspect that brings up the need for improvement.

Have a good one,

tony
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-10-2007, 03:33 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnyce View Post
i didnt like the second article really-it was 3years old, and the update didnt really update anything.

this is what i didnt like-in bold

"Executive Summary: Buy a half or full-face helmet that's 1) Snell certified, 2) comfortable, and 3) attractive. Within those constraints, spend whatever you're comfortable with. More expensive helmets may be more attractive and/or more comfortable, but they are no safer than less expensive Snell certified helmets. Buy a new helmet at least every five years. Destroy helmets that are significantly older than five years. Wear your helmet most of the time, especially on short trips close to home. Avoid the new flip-open helmets, as the hinge mechanism compromises the protection of your temples and eye sockets. At the time of this writing (7/04) no flip-open helmet has been Snell certified. Here's the official list of all currently Snell certified helmets."

i dont think snell certifies any half face helmets, and even if they do, byebye teeth, face, nose, etc. if you go down. and come on, wear your helmet most of the time?! if the law doesnt require you to wear it, i understand its a personal choice, but if you're gonna give advice(especially when its aimed at new riders), it should be wear it allllll the time.
I do agree with your comments. I just think the article raises some interesting issues about flip-ups and DOT compliance.

I just checked Shoei's 'site. Two out of their three open helmets are Snell approved. I agree about the missing teeth.

Have a good one,

tony

Last edited by tonered; 10-10-2007 at 03:48 PM. Reason: typo
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-10-2007, 03:44 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by dnyce View Post
yea- direct from article:

Prices range considerably -- from $30 to $700 -- though more expensive doesn't mean better in terms of impact protection.

"The standards drive the performance of the helmet. If you spend $700 for brand A and $600 for brand S and $200 for brand M, the performance is going to be very similar, assuming they all meet the same standard," said Thom. "You'll get something for your money -- nicer interiors, nicer finish -- but you don't get two or three times as much protection by spending two or three times as much money."

thats true. what did u see wrong with that?
Sorry, the two statements that bothered me were:

“ "There's no question that a Snell helmet will take more impact," said Thom. "You can hit it more times in the same spot than a plain old DOT helmet, but the reality is, who cares? That doesn't happen in real life." “

And:

“. . . a partial-coverage helmet that meets the DOT standard gives riders almost all the protection of a full-face.”

Reading the info on the Snell Foundation website, the “M” designation is for motorcycle design and for a single impact only. I believe the better statement would have been: given the low average impact speed (13.4mph), a DOT-only helmet from a reputable manufacturer is sufficiently stiff to protect the rider, but a Snell helmet is stiffer due to the Snell test requirements and offers protection above that average speed. If you ride on highways, a multiple standard helmet might be a good choice.

I might be a bit off my rocker, but I just cannot understand, given the apparent data, why beanies or open face helmet are even legal for licenced motorcycles. If someone wants to chance it on a moped, fine, but not on a DOT classified motorcycle.

I have a lot of respect for cruiser guys that wear full face helmets in an otherwise style-driven class of bikes.

Have a good one,

tony

Last edited by tonered; 10-10-2007 at 03:51 PM. Reason: add a statement and can't type
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-10-2007, 04:22 PM
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Hey man, good post, but you dont have to tell us to have a good one every post!!!

I agree with what you pointed out, when I first read it was was wondering what you didnt agree with, but I see exactly what you were talking about!!

Again, great post!!
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-11-2007, 10:48 AM Thread Starter
 
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Hey man, good post, but you dont have to tell us to have a good one every post!!!

I agree with what you pointed out, when I first read it was was wondering what you didnt agree with, but I see exactly what you were talking about!!

Again, great post!!


I just haven't had time to put together an avatar or banner.

trying . . to . . add . . . my . . name
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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-11-2007, 01:57 PM
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I just haven't had time to put together an avatar or banner.

trying . . to . . add . . . my . . name

Its all good, holla if ya need help!
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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-11-2007, 02:03 PM
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Holla!!
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-11-2007, 02:03 PM
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sorry, i couldn't help myself.
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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-11-2007, 02:09 PM
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sorry, i couldn't help myself.
dork!!
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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-11-2007, 02:11 PM
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what if I am? I am pretty normal compared to most of the people at my school.
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post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-11-2007, 02:11 PM
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what if I am? I am pretty normal compared to most of the people at my school.
i'm just teasing ya, I am a huge dork myself, so I recognize!!
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post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-11-2007, 02:11 PM
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and do you have some sort of filter that wont let a person use caps lock?
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post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-12-2007, 12:05 AM
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Its all good, holla if ya need help!
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Holla!!
I wise man once said:

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post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-12-2007, 10:48 AM
 
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I wise man once said:
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post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-23-2007, 12:35 AM
 
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couple things to add-
This long, interesting article on the debate over helmet safety standards made me skeptical of SNELL testing as it can actually make a helmet too stiff.
Well now the UK is launching a new helmet testing institute and website designed to let consumers know which helmets are best- and in what ways. They will start seriously testing and releasing the results in spring 2008 but the site already has good info on it.


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